Allah points out the French support for the Ba'athists. Thanks, guys.

As if hiding Roman Polanski for a couple decades wasn't bad enough.

Also from Allah we learn about some more French anti-Semitic attacks. Shocking, isn't it?

Strasbourg
Paris

Jamie even doesnt read the links he post.
There nothing about French supporting the Baassit.

So as you dont have now anything to post agaisnt French , Jamie, you decided to openly lie ?

You are dishonest. Shame on you.

You mean the link at comitesirak.free.fr?

Yeah, the one which says:

"Each Yankee soldier who falls today in Iraq is a step towards the liberation of the peoples of the four continents."

and:

"A final defeat, after a sinking down in a guerilla of attrition, of the American-Zionist imperialism in Iraq will have gigantic effects on all the other fronts of fight, particularly in occupied Palestine and Europe..."

You say, "there nothing about French supporting the Baassit," which is true I guess, but there is certainly evidence of the French supporting the Ba'athists. Or, to be honest - opposing the Americans. It's actually plain to see the article at that link is far more anti-American than pro-Ba'athist. And they couldn't give a rip about the average Iraqi, either.

Heh. I added the last two links before even seeing Marc's comment. Touche', chico.

So, the Muslim perpetrators committed, yet again, more anti-Semitic attacks after their protests regarding the hihab ban.

Well, what kind of violence will overtake France if Education Minister Luc Ferry has his way saying “the proposed ban also could outlaw beards if they are judged to be a sign of faith”?

Can the fabled French moustache be far behind on the ban list?

Well, of course the French could just blame these scarf/beard/anti-Semitic violence problems on America. As Olivier Guitta reports (see link below) “Everything negative occurring in the planet, or for that matter even in France, is the fault of the USA. Blame it on America has turned into a national sport”.

Blame it on America article link:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11759

Blaim whoever you feel won't riot and kill frenchman. See if it helps you.

So there's no french support to saddam baathist?Ha, ha, ha!!!

Here in Spain, left wing openly support the so called "irak resistance". wich is pure terrorism.
You french called resistance everything that moves. Like in Vichy. Yeah, what a huge resisstance!!!
If here left wing support it openly, imagine you with al your american and jewish phobia plus petrol contracts can do.

By the way, Mr. Marc Levis, in spain anything that sounds to francophily is just a joke.
Is not there are good persons in france, it's plenty of them, is the foreign policy against spain, your passivity even support to basq terrorism for so long, god bless Sarkozy is making an excellent job with ETA, many people died.
The disdain we feel everytime we visist france,
The fact that france knew that marocco was going to invade Perejil Island, and how they banned UE militar help to create spani problems.
Look i mean , i would never end if i say all the injures, lack of diplomacy in sports ( tour of france, roland garros), and much more things you did to us.
Sorry, we are not inferior, you have serious COMPETENCE of your southern neighbours.
We deserve respect.

I am inclined to float my stick with the Spaniard.

There is a cool post on Merde in France to Europundits which comes up with a great new name for France: "New Afghanistan". I say we run with it.

You wanna float your stick with me?

Uy, uy, uy, you froggies are always so perverse...

Ok, i accept, but i want you to sing the Marselleise when we are at it.

Hola Victor,

No te equivoca con J.Mayeau, solo su nombre es Francés.
Pero el chico es Americano.

Entonces puedes jugar con él sin peligro ;DDD

Pierre,
Je vous vois avoir maîtrisé l'utilisation de Babelfish. Now cut it out and post your messages in English.

Beo, don't be so arrogant, it's french copyrighted.

I love it when my Froggie sounding name causes confusion. I sure miss Jacque Cousteau. Victor, Pierre is correct. I am from California.

Although I am unaware of any peril that could be caused by the misunderstanding.
Pierre what sort of danger were you refering to?

Hola Victor!!

We in the US are most impressed with your Prime Minister, JOSE MARIA AZNAR.

Aznar has said that he was convinced of the need to combat terrorism, and that he was certain that Bush’s decision to invade Iraq was justified. He said “We supported that effort because we believed that international legality had been breached, and that can’t be tolerated”. Thank you, very much, sir.

Anzar also said that Europeans are often “swayed by clichés, too lackadaisical and in too much of a comfort zone or in denial” about the dangers of global terrorism and crucial world problems.

But, his best line is saved for last: “Spain’s decision-making in foreign policy has been subordinate to FRANCE, which is no longer the case. Some are happy, others are not. I’m happy for Spain to be making its own decisions. All of a sudden we find ourselves at the forefront.” You are not the only one happy there, my friend.

Many thanks for AZNAR and the Spaniards. By the way, they make pretty good wine in Spain…..

(quotes above are from Washington Post, January 14,2004)

Andy your naivety is so cute, how old are you?

Spain has resently contributed the impliments to start rice farming in Iraq. This is exactly the type of thing that is needed for the new republic of Iraq. This gift will be appreciated for generations.

How refreshing to deal with a European power that does more then spout enpty platitudes about their concern for the Iraqi people. How unlike the French and Germans.

You and yours have done yourselves proud Victor.

Spain... how refreshing indeed...

Where was Spain in First Iraqian war, in Kosovo war, in Afghanistan , in the last iraqian war ?

Spain indeed doesn't shout, it has anything to say or to propose. Spain is a follower...

ALso, Aznar's aims are not so much to "help Iraqians". He clearly intents to bring back Spain
in a more important Politic Role in the World, from which it is absent for 2 centuries.
It means he intends that Spain would "spout empty platitudes "like the rest of leading countries.
Spain takes benefit of the US action, at no cost.

And last, Spain was the most reluctant European country to war. No doubt that the next democratic presidential election will favorize a candidate that represent more the publc opinion : Anti-american , and Anti-war.

Thank you so much for your beatifull words, i really appreciate them. thanks to andy and to J. Mayeau.
I'm in the youth of Jose Maria Aznar political partie, and i'm also very pro american and pro israel. i think that the judeophobia and antiamericanism in europe are a pain in the ass.
It's all about ignorance and stupid topics. They think Neocons are devil, and when they say no war they say, USA DIE!!!!
i don't wanna live in europe no longer, i don't belong here anymore, there are no principles, i have an american global vision of the world, sometimes you need to fight to free people, i just need a green card now.
HEY MARC LEVIS, FUCK YOU!!!Yeah you are the stereotype of the european i dislike, you say Spain is a follower, ok? i don't give a damn, at leats where are no collaborationist and we don't speak about peace when it's only about saving petrol contracts.
Spain has a much better role to play right now that france, our economy is growing 4 times faster than yours, we havea much more flexible and open market than you do, your economy is the worst, what about breaking the Ecofin rules, monsieur chirac? is so ashaming...
we are 1 investor in southamerica and 5th investor in the rest of the world, we have good relations, even the war with the arab world, and our president is not gonna end in jail like yours when he gets no more inmunity.
Your huge state is no able to mantain your ridicolous welthfare state, you are living a dream, the grandieur is over, you still didn't find your role in this world.
How can you think you can face USA hyperpower, are you stupid or what? FRANCE MILITAR POWER IS NOTHING!!! with this i don't say Spain is an hyperpower, we are just in the right side, hand to hand with the leaders of free world, the united states of america.
BY the way, since war begun 9 spaniards die, this is no cost for you?
and if you think the socialist are gonna win the electons in two months just for the hypocrat claim NO WAR! is cos you really have no idea hoe spaniards think, you cannot meassure a country opinion by demonstrations, that's a totalitarist concept.

So, speaking of refreshing….it is nice to see that marc etc have disdain for other countries other than US. Boy, for being such a DIPOLMATIC bunch, you guys sure do not like a lot of countries. And it appears they do not care for you much either.

Which country is next? How about IVORY COAST? Great line here about President Laurent Gbagbo. “He has also tried to diversify the participation of international companies in major Ivorian industries AWAY FROM THE PREDOMINANCE OF FRENCH FIRMS, seeking in particular the involvement of American investors….”

Well, that is refreshing indeed.

FRANCE MILITAR POWER IS NOTHING!!!
Compared to the US, certainly. Compared to Spain, it is an hyperpower..

our economy is growing 4 times faster than yours
With these rythm, in 20 years indeed Spain may become a challenger. The gap is still huge. France and Spain doesn't operate in the same category. Check it here

you are living a dream, the grandieur is over, you still didn't find your role in this world.
It's amazing how this sentence apply perfectly to Spain.

Again someone completely blind. For him, the 5th economy in the World is the worth. Interesting .

with this i don't say Spain is an hyperpower, we are just in the right side, hand to hand with the leaders of free world, the united states of america.
Thank you to confort my idea that Spain(Aznar) is just a follower, who eats in the hand of the stronger.

Marc, you have just no idea how france is gonna suffer in the next ten years, you just have no idea.
french army is not more an hyperpower compared to anyone, so sad you have to compare to a shity country like spain to say you are an hyperpower, uh?
there's onlyone hyperpower righ now.
the problem of people like Marc is that they cannot accept that there are people who act by principles.
We suffer terrorism for a long time, thank in huge part to you, that made france a safe place for basq terrorism, and we know you can't be tolerant, you can't act like if nothing happens, taht's not real peace, just make stronger the enemy.
it's not about being a follower, it's not about eating in the hand of the stronger, it's about making world a safer place, it's about giving people in the rest of the planet an opportunity to live in democracy and free those countries of those fanatic dicatorships.
i knoww you will never understand something like that, cos your cynism is so huge that you cannot imagine people acting for good reasons instead petrol contacts.
that's france, the real imperialism, good friends of dictators if it's worth it.
Spain is already a challenge for france, it's just you are not used to see us succeed.
your economy is so bad, and your state is so huge.
the worst of all is that everytime you need to change something you go on strike and nothing changes.
we know what's our paper in this world, cos we are not trying to be more of what we are.
we are a young democracy with a very important weight in southamerica, we don't wanna be european leaders, that paper neither belongs to you.
And of course we follow USA foreign policies, we are not going to follow you, bounch of liars, we don't wanna be friends of dictators, this is your arab french policy.
Being the 5th biggest economy in the world wasn't very usefull in brussels two months ago, you should have been fined, but as always france cannot accept that other countries made better economic policies than them, and now thanks to france and germany, the ecofin rules are broken.
if this is gonna be european union, i don't spain to be there.

Marc, you have just no idea how france is gonna suffer in the next ten years, you just have no idea.
Because you, from your hole in Spain you have a better idea ? Do you take drugs ?

so sad you have to compare to a shity country like spain
But you told ,that"we are 1 investor in southamerica and 5th investor in the rest of the world, we have good relations" .
So yo are shity country or such a powerful actor in the world as you suggested in your previous post. Your arguments are confusing.

We suffer terrorism for a long time, thank in huge part to you, that made france a safe place for basq terrorism
I'm sorry but if YOUR basqs people would be as peaceful as OURS , the situation would be more safe. And France arrest regularly YOUR basqs terrorists,even leaders, because it seems that you are unable to stop them .

it's about making world a safer place, it's about giving people in the rest of the planet an opportunity to live in democracy and free those countries of those fanatic dicatorships
You will never manage to do it with wars. Russia, China , North Korea ,Cuba are dictatorships, a numerous African countries are dictorships.
I don't agree to make a war with such countries.

we are a young democracy with a very important weight in southamerica
It may explain why the South American is so low.
Oh wait , there's Brazil. But Does Brazil belong to the Spanish zone of Influence. Ah.. no ..

we don't wanna be european leaders
because you can't.

And of course we follow USA foreign policies, we are not going to follow you, bounch of liars
Actually, the French and US foreign diplomacies have many common points and objectives. The main difference is the ability for the US to start wars.
If Spain want to follow the US, it has first to build an army, something like the British have.
Carrying water to the fighting troops is fine, but not enough to be considered as a serious ally.

Being the 5th biggest economy in the world wasn't very usefull in brussels two months ago
The subject was Politics, not economy.

I'm sorry but if YOUR basqs people would be as peaceful as OURS , the situation would be more safe. And France arrest regularly YOUR basqs terrorists,even leaders, because it seems that you are unable to stop them .

If France is so good at pacifying terrorists, please explain Sarcelles. And Corsica.

Carrying water to the fighting troops is fine, but not enough to be considered as a serious ally.

So rather than carry water to the fighting troops, France has nationwide media celebrations whenever one of them is killed by terrorists. More than enough to be considered as a duplicitous enemy.

Lies, more lies and injures.
what you said about basq terrorism was just... i can't find words to define all the evil in your answer, pure evil.
you have to be aware with this subject, it's plenty of terrorist victims whose murders are still livin peacefully in france.
If Corcega terrorist would hide in spain, we'll help you much 100 times more of what you do with us.
where does all this hate and demagogy comes from?
I'm tired of your answers, all are a compliation of topics, ignorance and lies.
i tried to answer in a serious way but that stuff ot taking drugs, and say my answers are confusing about spanish militar when i was obviously being ironic shows you don't have the will to debate, you just wanna injure and be demagogic, cos in the deep of all, i know, cos i really know, you still keep thinking africa begin in the pyrinees.
it's the last time i answer you, it's just not worth it.

i tried to answer in a serious way but that stuff ot taking drugs, and say my answers are confusing about spanish militar when i was obviously being ironic shows you don't have the will to debate, you just wanna injure and be demagogic
If you would really like to debate seriously, you wouldn't start, and everybody can witness it, by a loud
HEY MARC LEVIS, FUCK YOU!!! in your first post.
If you bash, you'll be bashed, that's the rule.

Actually, in Bueno's first post he addressed you very politely: "By the way, Mr. Marc Levis..."

It was only after your comment that "Spain takes benefit of the US action, at no cost" that he became irate at your disparaging the lives of nine of his countrymen who died alongside their American allies - and then he told you what to do with yourself.

Just to put the record straight.

I didn't see the Victor Bueno very first post. My mistake. What I believed to be the first, was the second. Anyway, I was not directly injurious as he was.

To add something in the Franco-Spanish debate, I would say that Spain developed for some decade,if not centuries a complex of inferioriry towards France.
Not so well developed as France, Spain is jealous of many French achievments and position in the world.
This cultural characteristic explains partially the furious angerness of Victor towards France.

I didn't see the Victor Bueno very first post. My mistake. What I believed to be the first, was the second.

Of course you saw his first post. You were replying to it. Maybe you just can't count.

Oh, I LOVE this one:
To add something in the Franco-Spanish debate, I would say that Spain developed for some decade,if not centuries a complex of inferioriry towards France.

Here it comes - drumroll please...

YOU MEAN LIKE FRANCE'S INFERIORITY COMPLEX TOWARDS THE UNITED STATES?

(Is that what they call "penis envy?")

YOU MEAN LIKE FRANCE'S INFERIORITY COMPLEX TOWARDS THE UNITED STATES?
Yes , indeed. The same inferiority complex.
In the fields in which the US are superior, economy, military, worldwide political influence ,French leaders , jealous to don't achieved the same good results , traditionnally develop by this way an anti-american behavior.

"As we are unable to imitate them, let's oppose them, to comfort us, let's denigrate what they do "
It could be a hidden motto of many of French but also European countries.

Thank you Marc. That was a very candid admission, and I respect the fact that you are willing to admit that.

My concern is that there are so many French, and indeed European leaders that feel that way about the US. Anti-Americanism has consumed many of them, to the point where they sacrifice their own national interests in the process of attempting to degrade the US. So many of them just automatically oppose the US, no matter what the US position.

I'm not saying everyone has to be like us. I'm not saying everyone has to agree with us all the time on every issue. But if France (or any other country) is jealous of the US (as you graciously admitted), then it is obviously because the US has something they admire and desire for themselves. Nurturing a hatred for the US is unproductive, childish, petty, and foolish.

And worst of all, it blinds these nations to their real problems. Instead of addressing real concerns (like terrorism, immigration, economic concerns, healthcare, and anti-Semitism in France), the leaders are instead only criticizing America.

"How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." - Luke 6:42

"Ou comment peux-tu dire à ton frère: Frère, laisse-moi ôter la paille qui est dans ton oeil, toi qui ne vois pas la poutre qui est dans le tien? Hypocrite, ôte premièrement la poutre de ton oeil, et alors tu verras comment ôter la paille qui est dans l'oeil de ton frère." - Luc 6:42

Beo comments: "How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." - Luke 6:42

I came across this rather lengthy article yesterday that concludes Europe's decline began with WWI and their rejection of traditional religion as a central tenet: Europe’s Problem—and Ours

Disclaimer: I neither endorse nor reject the conclusions of the author, but rather submit it simply for discussion.

You summarized most of our differences here Victor

How can you think you can face USA hyperpower, are you stupid or what? FRANCE MILITAR POWER IS NOTHING!!! with this i don't say Spain is an hyperpower, we are just in the right side, hand to hand with the leaders of free world, the united states of america.

So, you considere that, as long as you don't have military power, you can't follow you own way and then get protection by siding USA.

After all, why not? USA is certainly the best "boss country" available nowadays. So Aznar's choice was quite wise and realistic. Spain has now a secured place as an employee of in the company N°1... SUCCESS !!

But there are other choices possible: France preferd walking her own way, choosing case by case what action (rather than who decide it) worth support. Is this so difficult to accept?
Off course, there are some uncomfortable consequence when choosing our own way rather than the way told by the "big guy".

- It can upset the "big guy", triggering some retaliations.
- You have to renounce to the "big guy" 's protection
- We can simply be wrong... and then we have no-one else to blame than ourselves.

But uncomparable advantage, we remain our own boss.

Spain has the security of beeing in the big company, just has to follow the instructions given by her superior. But off course MUST follow ANY instruction and nothing else without permission.
France still runs her little workshop, has to find customers, do thre job, bother about administrative stuff, pay the suppliers etc.
But is free to tell OK with this or NO WAY about that, and start anything she like by her own.

Matter of choice.

Yes, Beo, the sitation is serious on many points.
Some solutions to our problems, that works in the US, are rejected because they are american-like, or pre-supposed to be.

I will take as as example the economical subject.

The contradictions are huge in our economal politic, even pathetic. For example, the "liberalism",under his US appearance,is generally badly considered in France , a source of social disasters. In the same time, nobody less than our prime Minister predicts regularly a increasment of our GDP, thanks to the impacts of the same, or superior, increasement of the US one.
It's really the only event he is waiting for to announce proudly that France goes now better.

So,The American liberalism is bad, but thanks to it , we , in France,will have a better situation !

By this way , critics on the American Liberalism should collapse, and we should imitate, or get inpired by the US. Why not to make our GDP grow alone, with the same recipes, instead of waiting the mechanical propagation of the US GDP increasment ?
Helas, that's not the case, and we fell into a very dummy contradiction: Denigrating the US liberalism, and hoping strongly that it give good results

We avoid the "US social disasters" to stay with our good old French social situation, that consist mostly in 9%- 10% of unemployed people!!

Terrible...

My two cents:
What is a country that bases its foreign policy at every turn on the premise of opposing that of the United States, to little effect, but a follower? A leading nation would chart her own course, for the benefit not just of her own nation, but for the other nations that she hopes to lead. Who does France's foreign policy benefit aside from France and some third world dictators?

Good points Marc. But to what "US social disasters" are you refering?

I still don't see Spain in a peril supposed or otherwise by not sending aid to Iraqi. Several countries have abstained Russia, China, most all of South America, New Zealand, India, South Korea all of Scandinavia and until recently Japan. What were the negative repercussions to these by the USA?
None. We don't work the same way you do in France Marc. America didn't twist Turk arms when their policy was contrary to ours. We prefer to offer the carrot, and hope reason will show the benefit for all when we act.
Spain recognises the growing threat Islamic radicals pose to Spain, because it is a large part of their history. I am sure Victor has wandered the sights of former Moorish castles. This threat is more immediate to him then it will ever be to we Americans inspite of 9/11's. His benefit is obvious.
France has a history also. They seem to deliberately avoid confronting their problems over and over again. Bravo for Spanish school system that they have taught history so well, that Victor doesn't need to relive the more unpleasant parts. Alas for French History teachers. I would say they are over paid.

France preferd walking her own way, choosing case by case what action (rather than who decide it) worth support. Is this so difficult to accept?

Yes, it is difficult to accept. Because France didn't really "walk her own way." France has a master. Radical Islamism.

But unlike your perception of the American/Spanish relationship, your "big guy" is neither an ally or a protector. Your "big guy" is a bully, and France is afraid of him.

I don't think France chose to side with Radical Islamism on a philosophical basis, but more of a pragmatic one. France is afraid of unrest within its own borders, so anti-Semitism and "disenfranchised Muslim youths" are allowed to run rampant. French foreign policy is favorable to Palestine and the Muslim nations, and turns a blind eye to their crimes.

I think it comes down to this: the US and the Radical Muslims are at war. France had to choose sides. Side with the US and face the wrath of the terrorist, many of whom already live in France; or side with the Muslims and oppose the US. The US will resent you, but at least the Muslims won't blow you up, right?

But France tried to play the middle. In an act of monumental self-righteousness, France pretended that she could play both sides. But universalists inevitably do something that exposes their hypocrisy. France opposed the US in the UNSC; France enraged its Muslim people over this school dress code.

Now France has no friends left that it hasn't alienated.

Good points, Mayeau.

Where is a Charlemagne when you need one?

This one is too carricatural Beo

France has a master. Radical Islamism.

Or rather simply false. See : USA made the huge mistake to help the talibans taking over Afghanistan, however USA was not submitting to radical islamism but simply tried to use it for her own interest.
Still about Afghanistan, France was the FIRST country to support America's action after 9/11, it was almost 2 years ago withe the same president and a socialist government...
Was France that different 2 years ago? I don't think so, just the situation was, the talibans claimed loudly their support to fundamentalist terrorism, to the WTC attack, hosted openly Bin Laden etc.
Today, the links between Saddam and Al Quaida like the tremendous WMD ar still to be found. Only strong point for this war was toppling this nasty regime. But we still think there are less murderous ways to topple dictatures. Especially when the initiative comes from inside. Are n't Spain, Greece, Portugal and all eastern Europe an example?

so anti-Semitism and "disenfranchised Muslim youths" are allowed to run rampant. French foreign policy is favorable to Palestine and the Muslim nations, and turns a blind eye to their crimes.

We don't confuse Islam and Radicalism. We stopped about crusade since long now. There are no "bad religions". There are just bad actions done on their behalf.
BTW Islam is about 600 years youger than Christianism. What where doing Christans 600 years ago?? : witchunt (you could be burned if your neighbour saw a black cat on your roof by a full moon night...), inquisition, crusade, colonisation. Is Christianism a "religion of evil" too ?

The Radicalism must be fought, not the religion.

Anti semitism : Here I must admit I don't like our way to deal with it. Our government and people is not ant-semitic. (Would be the French Jew community the largest in Europe if so ?). But we try to hide and deny the antisemitic events rather than face them seriously.The motto seems tobe "No waves ! no fuss! ignore it and it will disappear by itself". This is our mistake, when such shame occures IT MUST BE A FUSS it should be the HEAD LINE in the news. I learned about the agressions this week by the net and not in our radio, tv or newspaer... This tells it all and piss me off.

The US will resent you, but at least the Muslims won't blow you up, right?

No, not right. the terrorism DOES NOT CARE about any justification. Precisely the principle is NO JUSTIFICATION... They kill any number of any people if it simply fit their strategy. Did the Talibans and Bin Laden's boys have any reason to hate more the victims in the twin towers than the people in "La défense" or "Tour Montparnasse"? No, it was simply an easyer and more spectacular target.

Their are several selfish national interest reasons for France's position (see recent Marc's posts). But trying to be spared by terrorist is no more credible than the reversed "all about oil".

France enraged its Muslim people over this school dress code.

This ridiculous try to solve such question by a LAW is indeed a big fault. It gave the oportunity for all kind of fascists to have a beautyfull tribune and today we are in a mess with that.

The worst is that now it is almost unpossible to go backward. By renouncing NOW after all that mess has started would not fix the initial error but would be rather a second one...

Not that easy driving a country...

France has a history also. They seem to deliberately avoid confronting their problems over and over again.(...)Alas for French History teachers. I would say they are over paid.
Mr Mayeau, what history do you refer to ?
You suggest that that we avoided the Muslim problem for centuries. It's time for me to thanks the French History teacher,for the broad spectrim they covered, from the Battle of Poitier (732) where Charles Martel stop the arabs in ther conquest of Europe , to the cruisades where France was a leading country.
But it's not the subject. the Integrist Muslim problem is a very recent problem, too recent to be a part of History. It is relevant to Journalim, nothing more. In France it concerns the second and third generation of Algerian-Marroco-Tunisin immigration.
Nobody in the world was really taking care of Muslim Integrism in a recent past: UK was alowing a kind of Captain Hook with a beard arranging the End of England in his Mosquee, the United States felts confident with the Fanatic Ben Laden, giving him so weapons to fight against USSR...

Nobody, except France. France was a victim of several attacks in 1995. After that, Integrists terrorist were searched, taken and put in jail.
And still now, Police have two open eyes on them and regularly since 1995, people are arrested, evil plans stopped. And France was not attacked since.
One of the attack consisted in crashing a plane on Eiffel tower, do you know this ? The pilot landed in Marseille to take fuel and refused to take off again.
Too bad that the CIA didn't recognize in this attempt a future possible 9/11.

Marc/Pierre et. al.:

After September 11, President Bush made the following statement concerning the war on terrorism: "you are either with us, or against us."

That statement was criticized my many Europeans as "too black and white." What do you think?

If a nation doesn't actively pursue and prosecute terrorism, is it not in essense aiding terrorism? If a nation does not arrest and deport/prosecute terrorists within its borders, is it not in essense harboring terrorists?

Pierre,
On your question of Christianity and Islam - I don't want to start any fights here. Just the facts, man.

Christianity is a religion of peace. Jesus is the example true Christians follow, and he taught love and demonstrated it to the point that he gave his life. People who murder in the name of Christ and call themselves Christians are, in fact, not Christians at all.

Islam is a religion of conquest. Mohammed is the example true Muslims follow, and he taught that betrayal and massacre were perfectly acceptable. Don't believe me? Check out a brief history of Islam:

http://members.aye.net/~abrupt/house/islam2.html
http://wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/moslem.htm
http://www.freeman.org/m_online/may01/winston2.htm
http://www.nicedoggie.net/archives/003244.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/jmiller.cb/a846.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/jmiller.cb/a830.html
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/saudi_teachers021210.html
http://nowscape.com/islam/islam.htm

Or how about quotes from the Koran itself?

5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

3.85: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

9.123: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

58.5: Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled to dust, as were those before them: for we have already sent down Clear Signs and the Unbelievers will have a humiliating Penalty.

"There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism. At most there is a difference of degree but not of kind."

-- Ibn Warraq, executive director of the Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society

I read Yassir Arafats wife was made a French citizen. Wonder what that means for her spouse? If the Kitchen gets a bit warm in Ramallah will you be receiving another house guest? Will he get hugs and kisses from Chirac?
France has a history also. They seem to deliberately avoid confronting their problems over and over again.(...)Alas for French History teachers. I would say they are over paid.
Mr Mayeau, what history do you refer to ?

I am refering to 1939. The danger was apparent. Also it was exasperated by French policy.
How do you suppose to mollify your muslim populace when even your domestic police force are fearful to travel in French suburbs? You are over stretched.
You and yours could have followed your current course of inaction vis a vis Iraq without alienation of Americans simply by communicating that you have your hands full already with domestic situations. In truth isn't that the reality of the French situation?
We are understanding of such things. If handled with tact this would have put the islamic radicals on the defensive inside France. Putting them on notice that lawlessness fostered by Imams will have consequences. Instead you let the thing fester. And ruined any good will from America that was created by your prompt answer to the call in Afghanistan.

As to religion I have no reason to beat my chest over Christianitys record vs. Islams.
The way I see it religion is only male attempts to artifitially promote ouur gender to the role of creator, which is by nature the domain of women exclusively. The best a man can do is to preserve the life given by women.

When you look at religion from this direction you quickly see that Islam is the ultimate acheivement as far as religion goes. The differences between Christians and Muslims are a matter of degrees only.

J.Mayeau, that is absurd, and shows that you really do not know what Christianity is about.

But this is off-topic to this particular blog, so I'll pursue it no further here.

You really think so? How many times have you went to a church with a female preacher?

The way I see it religion is only male attempts to artifitially promote ouur gender to the role of creator, which is by nature the domain of women exclusively. The best a man can do is to preserve the life given by women.

I don't think it is that an absurd idea. Just unusual... New for me, I never heared or simply had this idea until now.

I always have seen religion as a try to understand all what is beyond us in universe and cope with our fear of death. This idea of quest for beeing creator is something to think about too.

Is it why the total unbelievers like me are so eager to create, invent build things which will stay when we are gone ?

Indeed, completely off-topic in this blog. But when a blog brings such questions on surface... It means it is a good blog ;)

Fine Week end to all.

Few words about religion..
The fact that Christianity is a religion of peace doesn't remove that some of the worst atrocities were commited under its name. Massacres against Protestants (Reformed Curch) , Forced conversion (or masacres) against south Amrican natives by Catholic Spanish , Crusades, Inquisition, and so on...

Whatever peaceful aim has a religion, you 'll find always some fanatics to fight, kill for it.

It is even more the case with muslims. Indeed in the "Coran" is written that the "Infidels must be killed, wherever they are" . Catholics and Jewish are especially mentioned as ennemies.

The situation is very serious with this religion. In france , it benefited until now of the famous Tolerance, that would be a characteristic of France.
We tolerate in France untolerant people, what an irony.
We have a domestic problem indeed with Muslims in France. It may be a part of the reasons that blocked Chirac to start a war impacting the Muslim sphere.
One can say that France surrendered to Muslim.
In fact, France didn't start to fight. Governements after governements, nobody had the courage to face the problem in a country in which you are charged of "Racism" if your sentence contains the words "Muslims, black, arabs, or even immigration".

Believe me, the subject is so hot, that we won't get out of it without a very deep change in our society. That may be frightenig , even for a leader.
The First one who tries something is our Minister responible of Police and security. He wants to bring back the security in the suburbs.

Another nice idea from the ministry of the Towns : eliminate the suburbs (in fact eliminate the towers in which are concentrated all the immigrated population).

We have a huge task in front of us, and we can't fail. We must find the politics courageous enough to find how to integrate our immigrated communities.
And this person will maybe be inspired to go to seethe places where it works better on this matter : Canada, and the US.

"The way I see it religion is only male attempts to artifitially promote ouur gender to the role of creator, which is by nature the domain of women exclusively. The best a man can do is to preserve the life given by women."

Hmm, i can't wait Beo's answer.
May this hypothesis drive to a succesfull conspiration theory bestseller, this seems
more like that your wife wish it to be true:
'Now, master, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. According to the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women to death. Now, what do you say about it?'[...]
When they continued to ask Jesus their question, he raised up and said, "Anyone here who has never sinned can throw the first stone at her." John 8:7

Shall a woman tell tee the truth , tell her she's right,but don't take it seriously . Avenger , 9:6

As I said, were the Crusaders/Inquisitionists obedient to the teachings of Jesus, they would not have acted as they did. Jesus offers his followers forgiveness and instructs them to share that hope with others who do not know him, and he gives them the choice to believe or not.

Muslims who are obedient to the teachings of Mohammed do exactly as they presently do - suicide bombings, conquest, intolerance, etc. Mohammed commands his followers to follow strict rituals and conquer any people who do not worship as the Koran demands, and puts to death unbelievers.

Jesus turns the other cheek; Mohammed destroys the "infidels."

J.Mayeau, the reason I said your argument is absurd is that you presuppose superior knowledge. By that I mean this - your ideas are based on the assumption that Christianity (indeed all religions) are manmade (i.e. internal) and not from God (i.e. external.) Many religions are made up by people, and most of those are for power or control as you say - but you presuppose that they all are such.

And on a personal side note:
I am a Christian. I don't believe Christianity is a religion per se. Probably sounds funny to you, but I'll explain briefly. Religion is man seeking to know God; Christianity teaches that God came to seek and save mankind. Religions require man to obey rituals and purify himself; Christianity teaches that mankind can do nothing to save himself. So God sent his son to sacrifice himself to save mankind. Religions require man to earn favor in the sight of God; Christianity teaches that man need only put his faith in Jesus to find favor with God. Religions require works; Christianity only faith. Religions teach disdain for non-believers; Christianity teaches love for non-believers, so that they will believe.

And as I said earlier, not all who call themselves Christians have truly put their faith in Christ. In Europe especially, Christianity took on social, political, and cultural connotations ("Christendom") and people supposed they were Christians because they were part of those societies. One does not become a Christian by birth or nationality - only by faith.

(Come on guys, you should have known that I was going to tell you about Jesus when you put me on the spot like that! :-) My apologies for the length of the post - none for the content.)

J.Mayeau, the reason I said your argument is absurd is that you presuppose superior knowledge. By that I mean this - your ideas are based on the assumption that Christianity (indeed all religions) are manmade (i.e. internal) and not from God (i.e. external.)

Beo, I never once heard a clarion trumpet call from on high. No Gabrial came to me delivering messages from Allah. I rather think this is the same for you?
This is not to say I haven't heard the voice of my creator. She use to read me bedtime stories when I was little. I hope this was the same for you. Presupposing surely must be more correctly ascribed to The Heavenly Father when the bible tells us that He created the Heavens and the Earth. I'm not promoting anything that grandious. Merely this, my life came from my Mother. Her life came from her Mother (who also read me a few stories).

Marc & Pierre,

This is the first thread that I have had you both in agreement with me. Needless to say I am feeling rather smug with myself.

Cheers

"I'm not promoting anything that grandious. Merely this, my life came from my Mother. Her life came from her Mother (who also read me a few stories). "

Whom's grand-grand-grand mother was created by god (if you 're a believer).
Concerning genders,since god is unmaterial we can assume it has no gender , like angels.
The calling father appeared with the new testament (Jesus) because, his role is more apparented to the protector than the creator (which is more male than female).

Another point: your mother hosted you wich make you feel closer to her , but don't forget that you're made half by your father and half by your mother.

To resume : woman = creator :half true.
conspiration theory : zero.

Avenger name me three female angels. Hurry quick.

Three Male angels Gabriel Micheal Lucifer. See how easy it is when you demote women from their nature.

Virgin marry ,Joan of Arc?
:)

Oops 3 angels, hmmm as it old you angels are asexuated : take a woman ,take a man get the sexual part off :you have something which looks more like a man.
Do u need to create a third gender to call the angels?

oops stumped ya. Well I was just finding the lowest common denominator among Religions. I'm not looking to convert anybody.
:)

Stumped nothing ,we 'd go back on this later ,have to go..

Nice post Marc, a lot of good thoughts in it.
Eliminating the “concentrated” towers has been tried in the US, with limited success. In many urban areas, such as Baltimore, MD, the towers, called “projects” were torn down in order to stop the concentration of crime, drugs, etc. in these areas. However, most were simply torn down, and no other consideration was made on where the displaced persons were to live...
Second, is the integration of the immigrants in France, and no doubt, in most countries in the entire world such as Turks into Germany, Hispanics into the US, etc. It is, indeed, a major concern.
In Washington DC, where I live, we have major areas of Hispanic immigrants. I think that where these immigrants are different than the Muslims that immigrate into France is that the Hispanics WANT to assimilate into the US society and culture (YES, we do have SOME!). Usually, within one generation, the children are Americans. I see them on the Metro with their parents, who speak Spanish to them, and the children reply in English. Again, I think they WANT to be Americans. I am not sure (and you French would know better) but I get the feeling from what I see of Muslims, and their religion, they DO NOT want to assimilate. Until they can tone down that religion of theirs, there will be problems where ever it is they go.

When I read about the onesided non gov confrontational press in France, I see it as an extention of the way things are ordered in the Middle East. Government is oppressive in the EU. This leads to people being allienated and abstracted from public assets.
Instead of seeing crimes such as robbery of parking meters as a crime against them, which it really is, they look at it as robbing the Government, which is ok. Over 300 cars burned up doesn't really touch the Frenchman who didn't park his car on the street. They think of it as a stroke of bad luck for the other guy , without realizing that the fire crews who were needed to douse the fire are money out of their pocket.

This is the same situation as is present in Saudi Arabia. Government there could not call on a feeling of patriotism to launch an all out assault on Israel because their people are alienated from the Government and see the Kings and ministers as the enemy.

When Marc says that you must watch that you do not condemn muslims for risk of hate speech prosecution he is telling us that the Government is the enemy.

If I were a Muslim Frenchmen, would I want to assimilate to a body that even the natives are ambivalent about?

Yes , North African immigrants are reluctant to get assimilated, contrary to spanish.
France had an huge Spanish immigration after WWII, and it worked well, already the second generation was "French".
They are reluctant because their religion maintain them far from the progress of the civilzation.
Accept the western civiization, is to abandon the "Sharia", to abandonn polygamy, to raise the woman at the level of the man, it's contrary to the muslim religion.
So for me , France is maybe responsible of the fail of this integration, but I would say partially. THEY have to realize that their religion and the strict repsect of it, will always make imposiible their integration.
Too go further, I would say that on earth, all the muslim countries are under-developped, because of the rigid concepts of their religion.

Mr Mayeau suggest that France governement is an ennemy for the population. Yes, the lack of confidence is huge, and that why, the "swedish" modle, that we like so much in France , can't work.
Swedish trust their government and accept high taxes, because they are confident that they wil be used well. Here an increasment of taxes is perceived as a robbery.
And the decreasment of Taxes, only possible if it is followed by more liberalism, more exchanges, is criticized also, by all our noisy pseudo -communist intellectuals, who further organize strikes to counter such initiatives.

I don't know if these facts influence directly the desire of Immigrants to integrate fully. However, the resulting economical problems of this situation, let a lot of this people without job, and that make them angry against France.

There are HUGH population shifts underway in Europe that are reconfiguring the political and social landscape.

Western Europe’s Muslim population, with a birth rate of 3 times as much as non-Muslims could experience a doubling of their population by 2015. That would increase their population to about 30 million in Western Europe.

This problem is distressing because the Muslim population is outright hostile to Western values, and the US. Also, as J. Mayeau points out, Muslim groups have reenergized a European left (and press) that is to a large degree hostile to the US, and Israel (both represented as capitalist and imperialist). The European press, and the left are extremely sensitive to any criticism of Islam (see Robert Kilroy-Silk being fired from BBC for anti-Arab remarks), however criticism of Israel and the US is welcomed, and, I dare say, encouraged, no matter how unbalanced and fanatical the criticism is.

Andy: "The European press, and the left are extremely sensitive to any criticism of Islam, however criticism of Israel and the US is welcomed"

You're comparing countries and religions. Nice mixture.
Any criticism of Muslims, Jews, Christians is extremly sensitive.

Yes, Max, I am, because the European press, and the “left” will allow anti-religious remarks, if they are directed at a country such as the US or Israel.

Example: A Muslim chap says, about American Jews who support Israel, “I think they should be shot, they are Nazis and racists, and I feel nothing but hate for them.”

Most likely, the left and the press will allow this remark because it is about Americans FIRST, Jews second. Prejudices will slip into anti-American clothing, and Anti-Americanism is the acceptable face of European bigotry in a way that anti-Semitism is not.

Now, could a similar comment be made about an Arab, Egyptian, or an Iranian who supported Hamas (Palestine)? No, of course one could not. That would not been seen as anti their country, but as anti-Muslim. And that is not allowed.

At the Afghan constitutional convention,

A low point of the [constitutional] convention occurred when the chairman of the convention, Sibghatullah Mujaddedi -- who is considered a moderate -- reportedly told women delegates, "Don't try to put yourself on a level with men. Even God has not given you equal rights, because under his decision two women are counted as equal to one man." (Mujaddedi was referring to a contested provision of Islamic law that says that the testimony of two women is equivalent to that of one man in some cases.)

"Avenger & Beo this is the exact thing that I am trying to get through to you."

First , i'll give you three female angels names:
Anahita,Ardousius,Barbelo.

You won't find much female names in the bible because there is no much names of angels at all.
This was done to avoid auxiliary cult.

Theier gender corresponds to the way they appear (male / female ) and to theier character .
But they have no gender ,they are light beeings
and just like your soul they have no gender.

"Muslims actually beleive this drivel about males being worth more then women"
First Islam is islam not christendom.
Theier TESTIMONY is worth more then woman's testimony in SOME CASES like in our society a child's testimony is'nt worth an adult testimony .
Besides the comment above represents one interpretation of Islamic law.

Personnaly, i don't find Islamic laws so unfair with women (i mean without abuses).I think the ppls who granted liberties to women made it as luxury act , they thought the society was developped enough to let women do theier fancies without seriously damaging the society.

God gave everyone qualities and defaults, so they
have to work together to survive.
It's a natural attempt the man have to force a little women to share.
But the woman was done so she cans easily decides no to share her qualities ,but to sell it and exploit it,which can create global unstability.
Laws/politics are the natural balances.
Men can do it also, but not in the same way : they
exploit they bad side to gain power , as where the women "sell" theier qualities making them trickier to spot, that's why sometimes they get specific
laws just like there is a financial police to track financial crimes.
The Muslims are'nt monsters with women ,we're generous with women.

Avenger,

Let me first congratulate you for rooting out some obscure names for devine beings with a female nature.
The Anahita is a Persian water goddess - not an angel. You might just as well have told me about Athena or Aphrodite. Watch some reruns of Xena and you will find more examples of female religious characters such as this. Its a pity not much is known of her teachings or how they would be applied to the world today.

Ardousius - I found some references to her at a site which is peddeling healing crystals. Also more telling is this one seems to have been discovered in a water jar an Egyptian dug up in 1945. The hidden gospels of Jesus had alot of ideas that are unusual. Like for one, that God is an alien space creature from another world. No wonder that someone from 2000 years ago had to bury it. Keep it secret.

Barbelo - According to the Secret Gospel of John, the Alien God's companion was a goddess named "the Barbelo," born when the Alien God saw his own reflection in "the water of life" and fell in love. Another secret sheesh.

This one is a variation on the Narsisist Myth. Also this other version has Barbelo as a french demon. Version of what? Where is this from? What reference?

At any rate not a very flattering portrail of women. None of this refutes my original supposition that Religion is an attempt to give the male gender the original power to create life at the expence of women who actually have that power.

If Politics are the balance then why is religion used to form governments in the Middle East. The fact is that one could just as easily ascribe all the references to God in the Bible, and all the references to Allah in the Koran to an alien from outer space who decided to come here for a sightseeing trip in his spaceship.(like they do in the places where you dug up your female angels) This is not a rational way to form a Government.

When 2(women)=1(man) the balance is lost.

I have presently not the time to check my sources
, i'm surely fallen on "grasp all that could exists" sites, you're very surely fallen on a new age site.
However we can find some interesting material in it : they has always been goddess along gods in the common myths and lore.
So saying all religions are "sexist" is rather dumb.
I have no time to search but i won't be astonished to find a female angel among the choir of angels in the christian tradition & perirepheral books.
But surely that would be lore , because the angels
are ASEXUATED ( i 've the feelin to repeat myself), one more time just to be sure : angels are ASEXUATED.
Either way you could have asked me about saints which would be more accurate ,but you prefered to ask me why the angels are all males?You could as well have asked me ,why are angels mammals?
Then you could realize the meaningless of your question (after all maybe religion was a
conspiracy to subdue animals?i'm sure you will enjoy this one)

"Religion is an attempt to give the male gender the original power to create life at the expence of women who actually have that power. "
Already answered .

"If Politics are the balance then why is religion used to form governments in the Middle East"
You surely speak of theocracy ,then you should know religion is politic because religion is an opinion too.

"When 2(women)=1(man) the balance is lost."
Men and women are different:the parity always get lost somewhere.I just say sometimes i think it's
looks better like this there than what it looks here nowadays.
I wonder when will come the day when will encourage ppls to suicide rather than take a second chance like we do know helping women to get amoral.

J.Mayeau, you seem to be obsessed with gender in relation to religion, and you are using your bizarre objection to discredit religion in general. And now we're pulling in obscure references to works of fiction and/or minor fragment cults to make a point... about what? God can't exist, because there are no female angels? (Reproduction is not in the mandate for angels, anyway.) Are your conclusions supposed to be proof that "religion" as a whole is an invention of human males designed for the subjugation of females? Man, with logic like that, you could be the foreign minister of France.

God can't exist, because there are no female angels? - plenty of boy angels though. Curious ain't it?

Are your conclusions supposed to be proof that "religion" as a whole is an invention of human males designed for the subjugation of females? - If the shoe fits, why not?

That's like watching a Bugs Bunny cartoon and concluding that rabbits are the most intelligent creatures in the universe.