Now it's my pleasure to welcome as our newest PaveAuthor - DGB, otherwise known as Damian Bennett. He's been here since the beginning - almost exactly a year now. He's been a faithful and articulate participant in this phenomenon that is Pave France. And now he gets to take center stage. I couldn't be happier. Well, unless France became a third world penal colony, I guess.

"I couldn't be happier. Well, unless France became a third world penal colony, I guess."

hey dude, find a sexual partner, it will fill up your boring life.

Get a sense of humor, might help yours, friend.

Don't like joke ?

You're embittered honey !

deja vu - is that a French word?

I’ve been reading a lot of Mr. Bennett over at the girls site: e-nough.

Glad he’s part of the group here as well. Again.

Another big fat american to the rescue! hurray for the republican scum

put your 500 billions box deficit in your ass
Canada's budget: 4 billions surplus
Proud to be Canadian

The ONLY thing worse than a Frenchman is a FUCKING Canadian. Thanks, Adam, for proving that correct. Now get your fucking ass back above the border and keep the fucking thing there. Got it, hose head?

SO thats were the Military budget went!!! Since Canada has the extra scratch, now would be a good time to teach them about copyrite infringement on medical supplys.

It's a sweet 4 billions box. free health care, cheap medic. It's good to do business with you.

You know the worts thing about england: Boobah!!

Adam that four billion is $4 Billion cdn, correct? That's about $1.99 usd.

It's a sweet 4 billions box. free health care, cheap medic. It's good to do business with you.

Yes free security also. Canada don't piss us off or we will send a troop of Boy Scouts, up to take over your country. In fact, I think it might be over kill sending the whole troop. Maybe we'll just send the Webeloes.
They are ten years old and there are only a dozen of them, but that will still be too much for Canada to handle.

I guess it was already boy scouts that went looking for trouble up north in 1812.
Watch out the white house doesn't get burnt to the ground a second time! :-)

OK frogs, more questions. You all did not do very well on the last questions, just a couple of "under-weight" fat jokes…..

Please, a comment on your elections.

Please, a comment Villain-pin head’s upcoming trip to Hati? Why do YOU think France is in Hati?

Please, a comment on investigation by French judge on Rwanda, and Kagame’s response.

"Watch out the white house doesn't get burnt to the ground a second time!"

You gonna call on your big brother England again? We'll send Rhea Permlam up there with an automatic rifle and a gunny sack, she'll be back here with that 4 billion loonies in no time.

Andy :

If you keep making enemies in every country you won't travel anywhere in you life !

"Villain-pin" funny ! (I don't like him either)
:-)
__________________________________________________

If every-body could stop fighting here ! It's a great week : The Socialists are going to win the election in France ! What a beautiful week !

Hey we never lost a war against you! Canada 1 usa 0 you suck, you're fuckin boy scout can't even handle a bunch of irakies armed with ak-47. Hey it's 500 billions US! mmm it's mean 850 billions cnd loonies pretty good hey!

your friend from BC!

"850 billions cnd loonies " Pocket change.

Interesting fact: The thirty million black Americans control more wealth than the thirty million Canadians.

Drive across the border sometime. Note the decline in the quality of the roads as soon as one crosses the border into Canda. I could go on. Visiting Quebec is like take a trip back in time to Upstate New York during the Carter years. In case you are too young to remember, that is not a complement.

Ask yourself what would happen to the Canadian economy if the US were to actually get pissed off at you, what would a French-style boycott do? I am not suggesting one, because you guys are still cute when you're mad.

Incidently zoomer, Richard Clark is a liar

Here is a transcript of a briefing he gave in 2002 where he contradicts what he said on Sunday night on sixty minutes about Bush and Rice being 'clueless'. He was lying then, or he is lying now. Either way, he is a liar. He is under oath today before Congress. If he lies now, he could go to jail. Should be interesting. I just wanted to keep you apprised.

Quick, Froggieshow is Bush responsible for this one? You opposed us at every turn. It seems like they should appreciate you more. I bet you feel hurt.

PARIS (AP) — A French railroad worker found an explosive device buried in the bed of a railway line heading from France to Switzerland on Wednesday, the Interior Ministry said.

Stephanie is now happy for a socialist victory in france. Stephanie's mind under socilistic welfare has simply not fully developed as of yet.
Stephanie- are you NOT able to take care of yourself? Why do you people cling to welfare like a handicapped person does to a crutch? Can you not stand on your own? Your socialist victory will ensure an even deeper slide into a 3rd world hell hole for france... more so than it already is a hell hole of a country. You like socialism, you people cannot even think for yourselves, your govt has NO obligation to you fools on welfare yet the weather can get warm and kill 15,000 in one week? that is socialism at work, and a great display of a country whose minds have all died.
Canada? Where the hell is that lost land of a place? Not the land north of the US that has been importing jihad freaks for years to ensure a socialist government is in pale with their votes?
AND some little sun starved pussy from canada says the US cannot handle the iraqi's?? You little flea-brained fuck- how foolish you are when your country cannot even handle a couple of indian seiks who cause so much grief for your brave Mounties. Man little dude, I can't believe anyone would have such a small stain for a mind but it seems to be pervasive all over the land of the pitiful canucks whose impact on the world is meaningless. As your country has been pondering your worthlessness and the great Economist magazine stated- If Canada fell of the World, would anyone notice?" The answer was and still is a resounding NO.
This is a link to videos showing US night time operations in Iraq. If anyone thinks we are losing this battle you have lost your minds. Look at Iraq as a "roach motel" that all the jihad coward scum of the world can take a pilgrimage to in order to meet the US personally. What the US is doing is simply making all the aholes the world over, who critisize the US and talk their crap about it's great people, that much safer. It's too bad we cannot control who gets to recieve the positive results of our blood and money. I can assure you france, canada and germany would not be on the list.
http://right-thinking.com/comments.php?id=P3825_0_1_0

Pato :

Stéphane, enjoy to see you becoming mad at him ! It seems that you don't know anything about socialism at all. And I believe in a social state where everybody care about each other, and do not only mind their own stupid business.

One more point : One day you will discover that other people's point of vue is not always stupid. You can be half-right and half-wrong for example.

when YOUR points of view do NOT always turn to such failure as they do, then perhaps I'll lend an ear. Simply LOOK at the UN and France and germany and canada- and ALL you have are govts who only walk the walk and talk as you do while they stuff their pockets with YOUR money and claim to be doing you well. take care of yourself first.
It is the US who shows benevolence to all, and it is the US who has millions and millions of citezens who VOLUNTEER themselves on a daily basis without asking for a welfare check or compensation.
a great french dissident writes today, (sorry for the length but is highly realtive)
« I share with President Bush and all of the American people human sentiments and desires for freedom, democracy and propagation of democracy, human rights, right of ownership and right to form a civil society"- Fathi Eljahmi, Libyan dissident.
Freedom, democracy and its propagation, human rights and right of ownership (which is, coincidentally, one of the most important human right - if not the most important - from which the others result naturally) and right to form a civil society.
That's it, the list is fairly exhaustive.
I'd say Mr. Eljahmi is more than ready for the democratic model, and he can't possibly be the only voice in the Arab world.
After all, just like Iraq's WMD, it's not because Blix the Goblin can't see them that they don't exist.
Talking about Goblins, would Mr. Chirac care to repeat that pearl of wisdom he used to lecture North African victims of their totalitarian states with? What was that "first" human right of yours again Jack? "to eat, to be cared for, to receive an education and to have housing.", wasn't it?
Or to put it in Radia Nasraoui's way, to "eat up and shut up"?
Nothing very surprising from the man ruling this Socialist Wonderland though: "To eat, to be cared for, to receive an education and to have housing", is not "the first of the human rights", but the UberStatist's dream. "Please, do shut up. All you need is a food voucher and see, I'm the one who delivers. Here you go, stop complaining."
Ironically enough, it should actually go rather well with Ms. Nasraoui's husband, ruler of the Tunisian Worker's Communist Party... Yeah, it's a dog eat dog world.
Anyway, I, for one, certainly hope that SpookyMan Gadhafi won't be allowed to trade his weaponry against his dictator's seat and get away with it, as the jailed dissidents seem to fear.
Fortunately, Mr. Chirac is not President of the United States (you knew it too, didn't you?), and the declarations of the actual President are quite far from Jack's Eat Up, Shut up:
« As long as the Middle East remains a place of tyranny and despair and anger, it will continue to produce men and movements that threaten the safety of America and our friends. So America is pursuing a forward strategy of freedom in the greater Middle East. We will challenge the enemies of reform, confront the allies of terror, and expect a higher standard from our friend. »
For his opponents, Mr. Bush presents a major default: that damn cowboy, he keeps doing exactly what he says.
Yes, unlike Flip-Flop John and yes, in the problem at hand, we can only rejoice over it.
It may take some time, particularly since it become more apparent everyday that America will have to take this road without Europe (bare Great Britain and a good part of Eastern Europe maybe. Okay, let me recast that: without Europe's Socialists from both the Left and the Right) who is pandering to Middle East tyrants.
However, I'm pretty confident that in the end, Mr. Eljahmi and his people, just like former dissidents from another East, will see the fall of their tyrants, and the restoration of their natural rights.
For the benefit of us all, and once again, thank to America.

I wonder who it was who called 3-11 the "eu's" 9-11 with such a disparity of death as well as such a grand disparity in that country's response?
So is 3-11 the "eu's" "9-11"?
No, but it's close: Madrid was Europe's 7-11 — a convenient place to hide and drink pink Slurpees until all the trouble goes away"

"...human rights and right of ownership (which is, coincidentally, one of the most important human right - if not the most important - from which the others result naturally)..."

Yes, maybe it is for people who don't know what "sharing" means. According to me, it's hard to believe that it is one of the most important human right because primitive societies lived in harmony whithout that (maybe it's essential in our capitalist society). By the way, the right of ownership is responsible of the removal (and then the death) of thousand of Native Americna Indians.

When Private ownership appeared fo the first time in England (around the 17th century if I remmeber), do you know what happened ? It's quite simple : a few people took the land to built their own business, that land belongs to nobody and was used to feed all the sheeps of all the peasans. Those poor people couldn't continue to live normaly anymore.
You know why ? Because some ***holes bought paper to take the land to built their own business instead of sharing...

Think whatever you want, but I don't believe that private ownership is a human right, but a golden cage among capitalism.

Laisse tomber Stéphane. Laisse-les jouer.

Drive-by,

What are you ranting about? France has faced similar situations (sometimes with deadly results) back when home terrorism was the least of your concerns ("Can't happen in the US, we're number one"...). I wouldn't say this is not Bush's fault, but maybe an indirect consequence of the mess he got himself into, just like in Madrid.

Whatever zoomer, are you going to answer the question in the other thread? What other means could have been used to remove Saddam?

Maybe you would be interested in reading this story, it is how the prospect of democracy in Iraq is stirring up the Syrians, who want the same, just like the moron resident of 1500 Pennsylvania Avenue Washington DC USA predicted.

a boycott, you're too stupid for that. If you think 850 billions loonies is money change, ok let's keep it to 500 billions US!! deficit. And the only argument you got : ROADS. Poor republican ass. with a 500 billions US deficit, i hope you got good road.

Clemenceau about american:( this one is a dandy!)

America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to denegration without the usual interval of civilization

your friend from BC

drive-by, don't you see in your so wondeeerful press the 'democratic' Iraq situation after your war? If Syrians want chaos, let's give them a stamp to write on 1500 Pennsylvania Avenue Washington DC USA.

Adam, nice quote ;)

Max, that's 1600 Pensylvania Ave, if you are talking about the White House.

Stephane: I'm proud of you, man. What, 3 posts and not a SINGLE mention of how sexy women are???
Are you feeling OK today???

don't you see in your so wonderful press the 'democratic' Iraq situation after your war?

Well, yes I do see items about the Iraq in our FREE press.

Of course, there will be different views of what is happening in Iraq, good or bad. If you take the view of the “new president of al Qaeda”, Zapatero of Spain, it is a “disaster”. A view held by many in France/EU, mostly because the US took to war WITHOUT their approval. And this is what I feel is wrong with that view; apart from overlooking many facts on the ground, the Europeans are focused on the WRONG political entity, the Bush government, and NOT the Iraqi people.

The anti-war Europeans are so very much blinded by the hatred of the US and of Bush that they have lost all interest in what is best for the Iraqi people NOW. What should have, could have or was not done before the war DOES NOT MATTER NOW. I don’t care to argue against the future of Iraq on whether you feel that the war was fought for the wrong reasons. Torture chambers and estimates of between 300,000 and 400,000 mass graves tell me TODAY that for whatever reason was given to go to war, a correct OUTCOME has been achieved. Saddam is gone, and the Iraqi people are overwhelmingly GLAD that he is. The governing council will soon have a constitution (something that is giving the EU a headache) in just over a year since the invasion.

A poll of 2700 Iraqis found 48% think the invasion was the right thing to do, 39% thought it was wrong, and 70% see their lives going well today.

Also, in our FREE press, we see Iraq as a very important front in the war on terror. Europeans tend not to see this, saying that there is a war on terror, and the war in Iraq. There are hundreds, if not thousands of murderous jihadists in Iraq today, not fighting an IRAQ war, but in a war against America. If jihadists are making the connection between “terrorism” and Iraq, well, then, we had better also. The European attitude of appeasement will not stop any terrorist attacks.

In our FREE press I read reports about the “world-wide” antiwar demonstrations outside of Iraq on the one year anniversary of the war. Yes, OUTSIDE of Iraq. There were no major demonstrations that took place INSIDE Iraq. I read about Iraqis who see the antiwar movement as not showing any concern at all for them.
Before the war “No war for Oil” to them meant “Yes to Saddam”. Now, the antiwar elite say “bring our troops home”. To the Iraqis this means leaving them to the chaos of international terrorists and surrounding states that are threatened by a rebuilt and free Iraq.

So, that is what I see in my press. Please, frogs, I ask again, tell me what you see in your FREE press. I do want to know. I’ve been asking you frogs a lot of questions lately, but have not been getting many responses. Do you read your Free press?

Pato: Yes Stephane is the perfect socialist unable to help herself or think for herself. "One day you will discover that other people's point of vue is not always stupid."

Yep the perfect socialist thought. It takes a village for everything in life afterall. Groupthink is the way to go!

And then this gem from Adam Smith: "America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to denegration without the usual interval of civilization"

Absolutely. Our cultural wasteland is why so many people keep trying to get to our country. After all we are so much more horrible than any other nation in the world. Our cultral wasteland is why so many people around the world wear symbols of our products. That is why so many people watch our programming.

Yep, we 'Mercians have never had any civilization.

Yet more pearls of wisdom from Adam: Hey we never lost a war against you! Canada 1 usa 0 you suck, you're fuckin boy scout can't even handle a bunch of irakies armed with ak-47. Hey it's 500 billions US! mmm it's mean 850 billions cnd loonies pretty good hey!

Yep Adam, you got us there also. Saddam is still running the country from one if his many palaces backed by the awsome might of his Republican Guard. Oh wait a minute, the men and women of our armed forces backed by over a third of the world went in there and took care of a problem that had been festering for 12 years of the high level of the rest of the world's concern.

Face it Adam you do your namesake no credit with your short bus riding intellectual capacity.

My, my. From their beer-soaked rathskellers, the franchouilles and canucks stumble into this thread throwing spaghetti-armed punches with the cold panty-weight fury of Tonya Harding. They appear to swing with no grander purpose than to hurt our feelings. They appear armed with nothing more dangerous than schoolyard wit.

Let’s start and finish with Adam Smith above – whose parents’ praenominal joke has been, no doubt, a cruel cross to bear for a son of scanty intellectual endowment. Now Mr. Smith, who I have never met, announces I am both big and fat. How can he know this? Is Mr. Smith a voyeur? Or is he just a big loud-mouthed donkey with nothing to say?

All can agree he is no economist. Mr. Smith suggests a country’s single best metric suffices for the general measure of a country. For Mr. Smith it is Canada’s current C$3,783,817M net worth , which, alas, translates to the less impressive USD$2,826,486M .

From whence Canada’s small riches? Well, the object of Mr. Smith’s big boast has been bled from Canada’s security and prosperity:
§ Rot in its military readiness , 1.1%GDP vs. 3.2%US
§ Per capita GDP, $29,300 vs. $37,600 US.
§ Inflation, 2.2% vs. 1.6% US.
§ Unemployment, 7.6% vs. 5.8% US.

Then there is that which is beyond Mr. Smith’s limited conceptual grasp, the lack of meaningful correspondence between a middling economy’s tiny ill-gotten surplus and a very very big, actually the world’s biggest, economy running a deficit, this after suffering a US$83B hit from the 9.11 terrorist attacks (the equivalent of 9% of the Canadian GDP) and while prosecuting two major military actions halfway around the world. The big numbers involved leave our canuck, well, confused.

Nothing illustrates this better than Mr. Smith’s US deficit working number of USD$500B, which he has rounded down some USD$21B or $18B more than the whole of his Canadian surplus. If USD$18B is negligible scratch, then why does Mr. Smith think Canada’s paltry USD$3B noteworthy?

Mr. Smith is not afraid to advertise that he is stupid, but in his defense it should be noted he is proud to be a Canadian.

DGB

The way I read it, there was no such country as Canada until July 1st. 1867. Further, I read the British subjects who lived up north of here, never had the balls to openly rebel against the English until after the American Civil War. The reason being up until that time the thought of red coats coming down the St. Lawrence sent a shiver up their spines.
After the Civil War, even the genetically thick headed Canadian Colonists finally recognised that there was no way the British could recapture North America. The United States was too strong for that to happen.

So the Canuuks took a timid step towards self Government, by electing their own legislature. But the spineless beings that they are, they hedged their bet. In case the British were not cowed by America's military, the Canadians still bowed to a Lieutenant Governor sent by the Brits. Ever since the Canadians have inched a bit more out from under British Dominion, precisely like a praire dog. Never venturing too far from their hole, lest the Brits fall on them like a hungry Falcon.
You have been living in our wake forever. No Canadians were present during the burning of the White House, because no such country as Canada existed in 1814. Only some far flung English cast offs from a socialist hell called Britain.

If you doubt any of what I just wrote, all you have to do to confirm it is to whip out some of your Canadien monopoly money. Isn't that a lovely picture of the Queen?

Any numbers not specifically linked in my post above can be looked up here.

DGB

One, two, punch. Was that harsh?
Sorry, I like most Canuckle heads, inspite of themselves. Really I do.

DGB,
I love reading your posts. I just wanted to tell you that because it is painfully obvious to all that did not ride the "short bus" to school that the putative targets of same are incapable of understanding them.

"a boycott, you're too stupid for that."

No, we just don't feel very threatened by Canada's risible attempts at countering your inferiority complex. I am sorry to keep bringing up psychology, but it seems like the only way to understand the attempted jabs, bereft of intellectual content, that the "Coalition of Imbeciles" that seems to have formed between the Frogs and the Soviet Canuckistanis here.

By the way, if you need an MRI, there is no waiting at any of the several MRI centers withing 15 miles of here. Just in case, you know, you get really sick, and can't risk going through the waiting list before treatment. Your two-tier system of health care, those who can afford to fly to Seatle, Minneapolis, Detroit, Boston, etc.. and those who can't. Do you really want me to start linking to waiting list stories?

But your beer is great, on a par with England's (I know that is blashpemy, but I believe it), better than ours. I will continue to buy Brador and Maudite no matter what insults you try to cook up. There must be some hard-working decent Canadians there or Canada could never produce such fine products.

And zoomer? Where is thy sting? You seem to have descended to the level of the rest of your side in this asymetrical warfare of wits.

Also zoomer, could you tell me, my friend, what search term I should use in French to look for stories on the "Oil for Food" scandal? What about stories on the book "The French Betrayal of America"? I am serious here. I want to read the French coverage. I want to be wrong, I want France to be among the free nations of the Earth. Prove me wrong, please. A place Canada once occupied as well.

On more thing. Is this story in the French press today? The United Nations allowed Saddam Hussein to shortchange Iraqi Kurds out of billions of dollars from the scandal-plagued oil-for-food program, and funds for the oppressed population mysteriously vanished after the war, The Post has learned.

jealousy, you still got a deficit and we still got a surplus. we are definitly living in a better country than yours. free health care, a much much lower crime rate, better beer and food. we're definitly more healthy than you(fat bastards). The quality of life up north is way much better. And we don't lick the asses of our military like you do. I don't think immigrants come in your country for the love of your culture, in fact what culture? being fat and watch the superbowl? listening to Justin Timberlake, or 50 cents? or kill other students in high school?

P.s. Damian, anybody with some intelligence know you're a fat ass computer republican nerd, who still believes us of a is a virgin surrounded by bad people who looks different.

Adam Smith,

Good to see you up off the canvas and swinging. For eight or nine seconds there, I thought you were TKO'ed.

Hope your corner tosses in the towel soon, before you get injured.

I don't think much of 50 Cent or Justine Timberlake. I know they are singers, but I couldn't name one of their songs.
The interesting thing to me is that you have heard of them.
The immigrants to Canada I hear of don't come there for the culture either. Rather they come because Candian spinelessness is world renoun,{see my above post for further clarification). Your country has no stomach for conflict , so your marked as an easy target for the expansion of the khilifah (or Muslim state of Khanida).

Your lack of concern regarding this troubling development, can only be attributed to your reliance on the power of the USA. Just as in the past(see above post refering to the British ), Canadians will oust the offensive muslim pestilence in its midst, after it sees America victoriously forment democratic ideals in the Middle East.
Ever in our wake.

tko? me? you're much more stupid that i thought. As i see, the war on terrorism is in pretty bad condition. Bomb in madrid, no more road map in the middle east and a american soldier kill every day in Irak. It's a total failure, unless eternal fear is part of your new century plan. You're afraid like your whole country. You're always fear that a ( MAD MAN) will someday crush your door and kill you. But hey!, you're an american hero! keep gaining pound and watching the superbowl.

Adam Smith:

It is obvious that English is your Second language. So, where did you immigrate from?

If English is not your second language, perhaps you all have a budget surplus because of lack of spending on education……

yes it's my second language, do you have one? but hey two language for an american! is it possible?

War on Terror a failure. Once again Adam er David states the truth. Hmmm I guess that is why we have had 5 or 6 bombings take place since 9-11. I guess that is why radical Islam is attacking us at home. Oh wait a minute Adam is wrong again. How is that possible? After all isn't he the font of all knowledge?

BTW Adam er David besides cheaper drugs (enforced by your government threatening to break drug patents...) what do you have going for you? I mean besides longer lines. Btw since your medical industry is far superior please point me to your medical innovators as a dumb 'Merican I need to learn from the best. Awww can't do it can you? Just like zoomerx trying to defend the frog medical system you are bound to failure.

Hmmm, no frogs have been posting.

I wonder if their FREE government has “taken” them offline….

Do you really beleive that your health care is free? And I notice that you didn't respond to the MRI jab. Why not? Maybe because your "free" health care sucks?

If you are so smart, it should be child's play to prove me wrong. But then again, maybe I am too stupid to realize that hurling tired insults and shopworn prejudices is the height of intellectual badinage. I guess I will never understand the concept that calling me fat proves that I am wrong. I guess the Canuckistanis showed us again.

Good strategy though. Come up swining, ignore all the punches that have been landed.

Canada, don't worry about your weak military though, because, as always, the US stands on guard for thee.

As for the lack of froggie postings, I am pretty sure that they have surrendered.

No doubt, the French are over joyed to see a like minded Canadian doing their usual dirty work.
Somewhere in Paris, Domi Villipine is taking his mind of the noisy striking firemans union outside his flat, by day dreaming of a way to incorporate Khanida into the European Union.
Don't have a heart attack Domi.

Is that smoke I smell? Ha

David or is it Adam?

In America only criminals need an alias, but no matter. I'm sure your Mother knows what your real name is.
Ye, though I walk through the valley of the shadow, yet I fear no evil. For I am a well armed , well trained marksman. If a (MAD MAN)crashes through my door, he will have to be carried back out.

They still have gun control up there in Khanadah. So if the Mad Man chrushes through your door, your going to have to get on your knees and pray.
Oh thats right. Khanadians have gone athiest, so praying to Charles Darwin won't help.
What will you do?
Perhaps you could put out a call to the mounties, if the Mad Man is distracted long enough not to notice you.

Yes, you can call the mounties, and be put on the waiting list for police responce(they're a bit busy now days, dealing with the Kilafah transition team){note how the Canadian Parliment called them cowards, who operate in the night under cover of darkness}{Some are a bit bolder}.
That way the Mounties will trace the call, and come pick up your corpse before the stink gets too much. Then your Government issued apartment will be free of odor, and ready for the first new Muslim Khanadian on the Public housing list, to move in.
Happy, happy, joy, joy, in the Great White North.

Maybe we were too harsh with them, but in case any of the froggies want to defend their media some more, perhaps they could explain this response from a Google search on the author of the book "The French Betrayal of America" by Ken Timmerman:

'There were no results in your selected language(s)[that would be French]. Showing worldwide web results for "Ken Timmerman".'

It is hard to believe that this story is not worth covering in France, even if only to give a perspective on US - French relations.

"In America only criminals need an alias, but no matter"
You mean "Papertiger" is your real name? Boy, I'm sure other kids at school were having a lot of fun with it, weren't they?

As for the frenchies not intervening, well I dare not speak in the name of us all, but it could likely be because it was quite enjoyable to sit back, relax and read you guys bark and bite at whatever/whoever is not american. Too bad it went into a little too much name-calling on both sides. Even NHL games aren't this aggressive, I believe.

I'll just have an additional remark for Cannon, who said (quote) "the men and women of our armed forces backed by over a third of the world".
You were backed by THREE nations (UK, Spain, Bulgaria) at the Security Council. 3 is not 1/3.

Drive-by, who the hell is Timmermann? With 664 hits in the whole world, it is likely even his own dog doesn't know him! Oprah fares better in French or even in freakin' Polish! for good reading, you may though want to have a look at one of the 65,000 links to Paul O'Neill + Iraq.

the mounties! i don't care about them! perhaps i'll care about the cia if i was an american, or perhaps misinformation is part of their work. but i don't believe that, i think they give good indication, i just believe your president can't read. And about health care system, our system is great and i don't need to spent 100 000 for an operation. Of course you, right winger, are big defender of liberty but no equality.

"Drive-by, who the hell is Timmermann?"

Thanks for asking, since it proves my point about you getting no info in your media, doesnt it?

I could find nothing in the French media through google, as I said, so I will have to give you a link in English

Now you tell me about how the French get all the facts, yet you never even heard of this guy. Then you can chuckle some more about how your govt and media treat you like mushrooms, they feed you bullshit and keep you in the dark.

our system is great and i don't need to spent 100 000 for an operation.

If your health care is so great, what is this: Western Canada Waiting List Project?

And here is a news story from a couple of weeks ago, this is just too easy.

Quebec cancer patients sue over wait

Women waited months for radiation; lawsuit could cost system $50-million

Oh, I forgot, I am a right-winger so my facts don't mean anything. How could I be so stupid... Oh yeah, I am an American. That's right.

Of course you could get me to respect your point of view by bringing up actual facts. But I have little fear of that.

Smith drops his guard, and is tagged with a drive-by haymaker flush on the chin.
Say hello to Mr. Canvas!
... one... two... three... (oh this doesn't look good for the Canadian bomber) six... seven... eight... (his leg is twitching) ten
Ding ding ding
It's all over, and the Yankee clipper has won with a TKO

theres the trainer coming into the ring. Adam Smith getting the smelling salts.
oh my
still no movement beyond that leg twitch.

There calling for a doctor over the public address system.

*TAP* *TAP* IS THERE A DOCTOR IN THE HOUSE? IS THERE A DOCTOR?
*sound of crickets*

Well you can always sign up here when you wake up.

Drive-by,

Nothing is free, even health care. But in the industrialized world (W.Europe and Canada), health care of it's a right for EVERYONE, not a freaking business for those who can afford it (litterally how much health care can you afford). The USA is the only industrialized nation where a major surgical operation can wipe you out financially.

do you know why there is no waiting list in the usa? cause when you pay you get to the hospital if not, die you freakin moron. Hey drive-by you want to talk about fact? facts like Collin Powell, facts like that? i didn't know you needed fact. wait i'll gave you fact i'll ask the cia, i'm sure you'll believe me at any cost.
Perhaps you can check how many children don't have health insurance.

check! that's cool http://www.familiesusa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Media_Statement_Over_1_2_Million

almost forgot : oh he's getting up, oh my god, he slam drive-by! holy smoke! now he's using drive-by body to crush papertiger, it's all over now!

Good news sports fans! Smith is up and ambulatory.
Still a bit groggy however.
His first question "Where did all the people go?" > the fight has been over for an hour sport.
His second question "Did I win? >You did fine. Better luck next time.

hey! Adam provides a link to a proposal in Congress; possible cuts to medical coverage spread out over five years, to be debated in an election year.

Don't hold your breath on those cuts, Adam.
Now go out, and get some snow to put on those bruises.

it sucks paperkitty don't you u think? someone like me who don't answers his own goverment or his own act, if you don't like that, just look in a mirror, your patriotism blinds you, your too subjective, it's impossible for anybody to have a good discussion with you or anybody here.
if you think life is a eternal fight so fight and don't ask question to the man in front of you.

"Stephane: I'm proud of you, man. What, 3 posts and not a SINGLE mention of how sexy women are???
Are you feeling OK today???"

Andy :

YES !! You're right, I feeled kind of upset this week, but I feel better !
That's why I wanted to say that women are incredibly sexy... For example : today I saw a wonderful girl in the bus she was soooooooooooooooooooooooooo beautifuuuuuul ! I'm going to know her a bit more (don't worry you'll get news of that story later).

Best regards !

Sorry, it's 1 : 00 AM and that's why I made a terrible mistake : feeled !!! GROSS ! > felt

sorry sorry sorry

Aww Adam, don't be sore. After all, your the one who came in tossing around the insults.
Let me refresh your memory;
...Another big fat american to the rescue! hurray for the republican scum -- Insults. without substance, right out of the box.
...It's a sweet 4 billions box. free health care, cheap medic. It's good to do business with you. -- Implying that you are a leech? Like this is a smirch on us? Very subjective.
...Hey we never lost a war against you! Canada 1 usa 0 you suck --- When was that? I suppose you never heard of the one time we really went to war. Oops my bad there wasn't a war between Canada and America Because there was no such thing as a Canada back in 1859, although you Brits up north are still mighty pig headed.
...America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to denegration without the usual interval of civilization --- Stole that one. (the reason it is the only whole coherent sentence of the bunch)

Yep you started it. So can the whining. It shows badly on your character.

Here is a bit more on Ken Timmerman
Timmerman has written an article with glowing praise for Jean-Louis Bruguiere in regard to the Millenium Bomber. That was back when France acted like an ally. The reason you have never heard of him? I suppose the French media wants to keep anti terrorism activities hidden. Those type of stories are a bad rash on the butt of multi culti feel good op/ed peices about Palestinian Freedom fighters, and the evil Bush Americans.

you don't understand don't look at it in short terms. You always think in short terms and small example

Women waited months for radiation; lawsuit could cost system $50-million

you don't understand, it's been month since this website is open, things like that always occure. To always be on the offensive, bash another country without being critic of his own. When fenchmen or anyone opposing your view said something about your country, you don't answer and you fight back with an attack. I don't apologize France and i'm sure they did really bad action, but when your goverment did the same things or worst, you can't go like that and bash. what you're doing has a name : sophism of incoherence between the act and the speech. You implementyour argumentation with your subjectivity givin by your society and your biography into a political debate. Of course by political debate, i don't don't mean politic(s). Let me use french for a moment to light my point(of course french is not my first language) it's the difference between la politique and le politique. In conclusion, i want to make clear that a constructive debate is impossible in this context.

my previous posts was to see how you would react to the same way of writting you use.

So if you can determine what kind of person i am, so am i.

in the mean while over here in the States, my county supervisors propose purchasing discounted drugs from Canadians, to save money on their tight budget.
Never mind that the Canadian drug companies merely copied the formula of American companies, then mass produced it minus the research and development cost. R&D being the largest part of any drug companies expenses the Canadians must be making a tidy profit.
Never mind that Canadian companies have the same morals as people who bring a video recorder to The Passion of the Christ then sell copy CDs of the movie on a street corner.
What truly pisses me the fuck off, is having one of the representatives of that country, here, telling me that I can't see the big picture.
Then he goes on to tell me how wonderful the "free" health care is in Canada.
Easy to say it's free, when your getting it on my dime, and the future's miracle drug research money.
Are you familiar with the term F O A D ? Adam?

you're useless, no brain at all, don't think, just follow the goverment everything will be alright buddy.

this one is for paperkitty

An American, wearing Bermuda shorts, T-shirt, and a baseball
cap, walks into a café, chewing on gum. He sits next to this
French guy who is trying to enjoy his breakfast and is not in
the mood for small talk.

The American, aware of the Frenchman's mood, tries to be
smart. He sees the man eating a roll with jelly and decides
to remark on that.

"You French people eat the entire roll of bread?!" he says
in an astonished tone.

"Yes," replies the Frenchman and resumes eating.

"Not us," says the American. "We only eat the inside and
then throw the crust in a container, process it and sell it
to the French as croissants."

The Frenchman calmly ignores him and continues to eat.

"Eww..." says the American, "You eat your bread with that
jelly?"

"Yes," says the Frenchman.

"Not us," says the American, "We only eat fresh fruits.
Then we throw the peal in a container, process it and sell it
to the French as jelly."

"Really?" says the Frenchman, "And what do you do with your
used condoms?"

Taken aback, the American says, "Uhh... we just throw them
away."

"Not us," said the Frenchman, "We throw them in a container,
process them, and sell it as gum to the Americans."

There you go again.

That joke I heard back n high school. Didn't think it was particularly funny back then either.
Leave it to a Canadian to take a worn out American Joke, put it in a French container, and stick his label on it, to re-tell it like it was his invention.

there is an explanation! you were a big adept of chewing gum when you were young and when you heard the joke. it traumatizes you. since then you're a francophobe. And you said to yourself i'll never chew french scum again!

"cause when you pay you get to the hospital if not, die you freakin moron."

OK, I gave you a link to a story about people who had a deadly disease, and since they couldn't afford to come the the US, they had to risk death waiting for treatment.

Now you show ma a link to a story in the US where someone was told "die you moron", and denied care for lack of insurance.

This argument may be too sublte for you but perhaps we feel that our way of paying for our medical system is better because it produces better "actual care" for everyone, even Canadians, who, it has been amply demonstrated in this thread, free ride off of our drug research.

From what I can make out from your incoherent ramblings, all you need to feel proud is that everyone suffer equally. So I ask again, who is the moron?

When fenchmen or anyone opposing your view said something about your country, you don't answer and you fight back with an attack

Please provide an example of what you are talking about and I will be happy to answer you.

You implementyour argumentation with your subjectivity givin by your society and your biography into a political debate.

Well, well, well... Adam does have a brain after all. Not that I am agreeing with you, but this sure beats lines from you like you are too stupid to boycott

Let me get one thing straight about how I argue, and I believe this to be true, you are free to point out where I am wrong and I will be happy to consider you position, I won't be online again today, but I promise to responde, even if you prove your case beyond doubt.

I use empirical facts in my arguments. I link to stories from media which can reasonably be expected to check facts. My biggest complaint against you guys is that you think that by quoting theory, as if you Marxist theories of politics were some kind of settled science, like classical mechanics, you think that you can counter facts, and so you don't need facts on your side.

For instance, lets look at this statement of yours:

you don't understand don't look at it in short terms. You always think in short terms and small example

Small examples are guideposts to the truth. You say that I only think in small examples, but I KNEW that I could find a current example of people suffering due to the shortcomings of your health care system before I even checked. I just did a google news on waiting lists and there it was. If your long term view of history is so effective, than surely you can come down to my level for a minute and point out to my limited mind an example perhaps of this "die moron!" thing that you say goes on here all of the time. Your failure in this area rightly makes me suspicious of your long term thinking.

As for short term, this in nonsense. In my view the divergent histories of the US and Europe since the war clearly show that market solutions work more effectively than the dirigsm that Canada has lately embraced, to her detriment. Candada and Europe get poorer as the years go by and the US gets richer, budget deficit or no.

And finally, there is

In conclusion, i want to make clear that a constructive debate is impossible in this context.

By this, it seems to me anyway, that you are saying that you can only constructively debate someone who already agrees that your theoretical approach to history is valid. Sounds like a circle-jerk to me.

I believe more in the point of view that "he who reasons too far from the firm shore of empirical fact, is sure to founder".

As for Adam Smith-cum-David Ricardo-cum-Adam Ricardo, a donkey who apparently doesn't know who he is, who's incapable of constructing much less following connect-the-dot argument, and whose tortured English is further mangled by his apoplectic and disjuntive delivery, well, gentlemen, you've been more than generous with your time replying to what for all the world appears to be a pre-teen with an inferiority complex.

Whether he is troubled by persistent acne or poor bowels or unloving parents, well, that's his business, but he'll soon need to find a new playpen for his tantrums.

I suggest he huddle with these moonbats.

Enjoy his company while you can.

DGB

zoomerx idiot:

Nothing is free, even health care. But in the industrialized world (W.Europe and Canada), health care of it's a right for EVERYONE, not a freaking business for those who can afford it (litterally how much health care can you afford). The USA is the only industrialized nation where a major surgical operation can wipe you out financially.

Didn't you learn from the last time we schooled you? No one is turned away from medical care here in the US for lack of ability to pay. You even agreed. Silly frog... Making the same mistakes over and over again because they can't even remember back two or three weeks. Is that the famed frog "long view of things?"

Adam foolishly said: "Of course you, right winger, are big defender of liberty but no equality."

Ummm liberty is equality. What people make of that liberty is what sets them apart.

liberty is not equality, that's why there are laws, because your liberty can cause troubles to other people, breaking the equality.

Why I bother to argue with Adam

Max,
I just don't get this. Why is it that Europeans confuse security and liberty?

It seems that Europeans believe that the caged animal is free, since his keeper provides for him, and the animal in the wild is not free, since he is responsible for himself. You guys never respond to this analogy. Why not?

DriveBy, when I say 'can cause trouble', I'm not only talking about security troubles. You can cause trouble to another one by doing nothing, that's why you have obligations (paying taxes is a good example).

For your wild life analogy, you just talk about one caged animal, but there are much more animals in the wild life. If you want them to have all the same rights, you'll have to force some of their liberties.

"If you want them to have all the same rights, you'll have to force some of their liberties."

Fine, then just don't include liberty as among the "rights" of man you believe in. This is where cultural differences certainly prevail.

To us it seems as if you don't know what it is to be truly human. Without liberty, expression of humanity is impossible. Do you believe that this is not true? Why?

"Fine, then just don't include liberty as among the "rights" of man you believe in."

ok, I see what you mean but in my opinion, liberty is a right as long as everybody has the same liberty, that's the link with equality.

And yes, you're right, without liberty, expression of humanity is impossible, but perhaps too much liberty kills liberty, at least in an unperfect human world (too much is like not enough).

On a more practical problem, can you explain me how "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms", in your constitution, is helping the expression of humanity in a positive way (another interesting cultural difference)

pfff! they even confuse equality and liberty...
and don't give up mocking my nickname and my english it's so intelligent....

"Without liberty, expression of humanity is impossible"

Well no, that's a bit too much of a black-and-white view of things. Otherwise, you could argue that our lack of freedom to walk around naked would deny us any expression of humanity (a statement that holds true only for a few very hairy friends of mine).

"The Right to Keep and Bear Arms", in your constitution, is helping the expression of humanity in a positive way

In America, even the underclasses can keep and bear arms. This serves as one check on "unfettered capitalism", another is "one man, one vote".

Once the group starts to decide which liberties aught to be abridged, the individual has liberty in name only. I gladly accept the few in 100,000 or so extra risk of murder by firearm as a fair trade off for liberty to live my life as I choose.

The tiny risk of murder certainly does not dominate my thinking, and it has been blown out of proportion by Europeans in your efforts to creat a cartoon version of the United States which is easier to generate hatred toward than the reality of our country. Look where picking and choosing among liberties has left your press, for example.

It really comes down to your word "positive". Positive is a value judgement. Once you start assigning values such as positive and negative to rights, you have decided to use the force of govt to make others live as you would wish. We choose to draw the line at actually harming another person, you know, using the gun for mayhem, than having the capability to harm another, which in and of itself is neither good nor bad.

Self-defense is actually the only right that cannot be taken away, even Stalin could not take away your right to self defense. He could only overcome your powers of self-defense. Although taking away someone's right to bear arms is a good start in that direction.

The right to keep and bear arms is deeply entwined with the concept of liberty. A concept that we Americans are taught from childhood came from the French. Which is one of the reasons we find the state of France today so depressing.

Adam said:
When fenchmen or anyone opposing your view said something about your country, you don't answer and you fight back with an attack

And I said:
Please provide an example of what you are talking about and I will be happy to answer you.

And Adam replied:
don't give up mocking my nickname and my english it's so intelligent

Although, to be fair, I think that his retort is aimed at Cannon. And to be kind to Adam, it appears that he did not read Cannon's post very thoughtfully.

Max,
BTW, I don't own a gun, but it doesn't bother me that any potential intruder to my home has to take into account that I might.

Drive-By, understand my point of view, I'm not in your system, I see it from outside, I think different but I don't try to convince you that I'm right. In another way, you're outside my system, so perhaps you can help me to have a better vision of it.

I can understand that in the name of liberty, you can allow anybody to do what he wants, but what you seems to forget is that your system has been created with Christians rules, that's why sometimes, the american religious behavior seems to be in total opposition with 'liberty'.
So what can you tell me about gay freedom, minorities freedom..

About our press, can you tell me which french medias do you know and what are the most disconcerting examples you found that allow you to say that our press is not free?

And what about your medias? I just want to take an example, The Dixies Chicks, boycotted in the medias because of their opposition to government ideas...What can you tell me about 'liberty' on this little example?
In another way, don't you think patriotism is harming freedom in the US?

You make a confusion here Drive-by

It seems that Europeans believe that the caged animal is free, since his keeper provides for him, and the animal in the wild is not free, since he is responsible for himself. You guys never respond to this analogy. Why not?

The closest thing to the nonsense above i heared was written ona greeting card with a "wannabee thinker" thelling that liberty was defined acceptation of limits.

It was a nonsense because liberty is way more than this. at least for humans.

Liberty (like equity) is a VERY BASIC FEELING. more likely evolved animals have these feelings. But what make you free is completely different if you are a wild animal or a human. If you imagine wild life as unlimited liberty, you are COMPLETELY WRONG. Wild life is simply submission to who is stronger and opression on who is weaker in such a way to live long enough for specie survival. None of us would never accept or simply beeing able to go back under so drastic constraint.

To feel free, we needmuch more than come, go, eat fuck and defend ourselves.
To feel free, some of us need for example to fly. To get this liberty, the humans had to create the condition to learn how to build the apropriate machines. This means going at school learning complicated boring matter rather than running in the woodlands, paying school to our kids rather than go drinking to the pub and much more OBLIGATIONS.

So if telling that liberty is summarized by acceptation of limits is a nonsense, It is plain simple logic to admit that NOBODY can enjoy some liberties until EVERYBODY accept some limits.

On the next thread, Damian point our "religious sign" law as a negation of liberty. But in fact it is just a limit :
MY religion, MY belief, MY opinion is very important (for me). But there is something more important for all of us : possibility to learn, build, work together ammong people of ALL religions, beliefs and opinions. If for any reason, the expression of myself can be an obstacle to a common work, I must shut up as long as I am on the given workplace... as boring but mandatory than stopping in front of a red traffic light.

To be honest, I don't think this law beeing the best way to reach that goal. It should be rather matter of internal rule in each school which can be adapted to the local situation and can be applied with some flexibility. (In some occasions it would be way better to accept a girl wearing even a burka but LEARNING in a public school rather than push her to an islamic school)

I would almost agree with you drive by

It really comes down to your word "positive". Positive is a value judgement. Once you start assigning values such as positive and negative to rights, you have decided to use the force of govt to make others live as you would wish. We choose to draw the line at actually harming another person, you know, using the gun for mayhem, than having the capability to harm another, which in and of itself is neither good nor bad.
Self-defense is actually the only right that cannot be taken away, even Stalin could not take away your right to self defense. He could only overcome your powers of self-defense. Although taking away someone's right to bear arms is a good start in that direction.

I have no idea what could be a "negative" right. There are just negative way to apply our rights.

In the principle, OK, having ability to harm another is meaningless, what count is will you do it or not.

So for "liberty to bear arms", why hell, should I be forbiden to have a machine gun to protect myself?

The answer is damned easy: I am way more dangerous with my machine gun for everybody else than the real danger to be deadly attacked myself. Think about all, wrong handling, wrong apreciation of danger (someone with the best intention can be very scary in unexpected situation). As result, for one person who really saved her life with her gun, you get 10 others killed because "anyone can make mistake".

It is a part of liberty for all. I must accept a bit less security for myself when it gives much more security for everybody around me.

To Max and Adam who believe: "liberty is not equality, that's why there are laws, because your liberty can cause troubles to other people, breaking the equality."

Let me guess, some are more equal than others in your world view.

Liberty is making as much of yourself as you can given the bounds of society. Equality is holding everyone down the level of the most incompetent in society. If you want to live in a society where everyone is treated as tards, then by all means that is your right. (Oh wait a minute you already live in that society er societies Frogland and Canada.)

Max however does bring up another interesting point: "And what about your medias? I just want to take an example, The Dixies Chicks, boycotted in the medias because of their opposition to government ideas...What can you tell me about 'liberty' on this little example?
In another way, don't you think patriotism is harming freedom in the US?"

Um Max so to insure liberty, even though I don't like the type of music (even before the big issue last year - my tastes run more 70s and 80s retro) they made I must go out and buy their music otherwise I am infringing on thier liberty? Should I be *forced* to buy their music to promote their liberty? They have the right to say whatever the hell they want and I have the right not to buy any of their music for any reason I want. Did the government tell the radio stations to stop playing their music? No. Individuals decided en mass not to listen.

SO thats were the Military budget went!!! Since Canada has the extra scratch, now would be a good time to teach them about copyrite infringement on medical supplys -pptigre

when i talk about the 500 billions deficit your country got, you don't even mention it. how can you critic economy when yours is not in good shape. Look at the definition of equality by cannon, that kind of sentence could perfectly fit in any neonazi manifest.

I have no idea what could be a "negative" right.

Yet you argue at some length that the right to keep and bear arms is a negative right.

As result, for one person who really saved her life with her gun, you get 10 others killed because "anyone can make mistake"

Do you really believe that this is the ratio? If so, please point me to the place where I can read this 'fact' for myself.

I don't expect you to agree with me either, you guys are too far gone into collectivism for that, just understand that we are talking about tiny risks here, that you have blown way out of proportion as an excuse to take away freedoms.

So what can you tell me about gay freedom, minorities freedom..

Gays are one of the most economically priviledged classes in the United States. As for minority freedom, I don't know where to begin with you on this one.

Minorities are far more integrated into US society than your Arab suburbs are in France. This is one reason that Al Quaeda had to sneak terrorists into the US for Sept 11th, because the Muslims that live here have been accepted into the economic and cultural life of the United States. These plots were hatched in disaffected European enclaves of unemployed embittered and ostracized Muslims who were living off the guilt money paid to them by Europeans in an effort to keep them from getting too angry, when what they really wanted was acceptance, which European society won't grant them. I am not saying that the US is perfect in regards to our treatment of minorities, but we are decades ahead of you guys.

As for the suppression of the Dixie Chicks, perhaps you have been misinformed. Dixie Chicks score record sales

Some boycott, some suppression of dissent. So how about my example to you, I ask you again, as I did above, to goole the name "Kenneth Timmerman" in French and see how many stories you read about his book the "French betrayal of America" anywhere but on blogs. This was a mainstream story in the US and accounts for much loss of credibility of the French point of view here. Even your friends among us cannot defend you on this one.

And you could help me out by pointing me to any French coverage of the current UN "Oil for Food" scandal, as I do not know what search terms to use to find it.

The difference comes down to this, I think, when we speak of equality, we mean of opportunity. Each of us has freedom to speak for example, but some of us are too stupid to derive much power from it, as Adam has amply demonstrated. (I will kick you every time you twitch Adam)

You speak of equality of outcome, and in order to achieve this, you are ready to sacrifice important rights because equality of rights guarantees inequality of outcome, as Cannon pointed out.

An example.
There was a guy on the radio, on NPR, I believe, to said that when he was in Communist Czecko-Slovakia he and all of his friends took menial jobs because they paid nearly the same as more responsible jobs, but did not detract from their intellectual life of literature and art that they indulged in the evenings.

I am sure that this sounds great to you so far, but think of this: How can a society succeed when they set up policies that attract their smartest individuals into menial jobs? It is wasteful of the most important resource, human intelligence. This is why French researchers leave France to come to the US, by the way, as story that is covered in your French press. This is also why, Adam's rants notwithstanding, approximately 30,000 Canadians, many of them doctors, emigrate to the US while only 5,000 Americans per year emigrate there. This despite the fact that they have "better health care" and we have ten times as many people.

So if you take the pinko bromide "From each according to his abilities; to each according to his needs" you can see that it is impossible to get humans to produce to their abilities without proper reward, and so there is less and less for those with needs. And as I pointed out, Europe and Canada have traveled this path and grown poorer, while the US has traveled another and grown richer and more powerful.

There is no conspiricy. These ideas of liberty, especially economic liberty that your 'intellectuals' have so thoroughly perverted have huge consequences in the real world.

"Equality is holding everyone down the level of the most incompetent in society."

Cannon, equality is not when everyone is cloned, I talk about rights equality.

"Let me guess, some are more equal than others in your world view."

yes, that's the problem, most of the time justice is not blind...
But what you're calling 'your world view' is the base of your system too.

Individuals decided en mass not to listen.

And what about the radio stations?
This general boycott against an opposition speech is no more than a threat against democracy.

You know Kenneth Timmerman is not alone, and his book is not THE book of the year. This is just his written subjective opinion. Perhaps you could find him in some magazines.

But did you hear about books against the war? or about Bush lies? French ones or other nationalities?

mmh...

This is just his written subjective opinion

He actually has a lot of documentation. But of course you don't need to read about it, do you? You have complete faith in your media to keep you informed of what it is that you need to know. But just in case you have a slight doubt, click here

I see you didn't respond to my Dixie Chicks response, why not?

And there are lots of books about the war, and that make charges that Bush lied, in English, and available everywhere, reviewed in major papers and displayed in the front window of bookstores.

Did you even read my post? Have you ever been to the US? Or is your view of us confined to the cartoon representation of our country in your, as I have proven here, controlled media.

What about stories in the French media on the Oil for Food scandal? I am still hoping you can show me a story or two.

An excerpt:

At least $5 billion in kickbacks went from corrupt contractors — mainly French and Russian — into the pockets of Saddam and his thugs. Some went to pay off his protectors in foreign governments and media, and we may soon see how much stuck to the fingers of U.N. bureaucrats as well.

Adam,
when are you going to answer my questions?

say it with a german accent,

Adam,
when arr yoo going to anzwerr mein queztionz?

No, drive-by

Yet you argue at some length that the right to keep and bear arms is a negative right.

Bearing arms is not a right (positive or negative). Defending yourself is a right and keeping your defense balanced with the threat is a duty.

In environments like far west in 19th century or today in Bagdad, having a personal gun ready may be a balanced defense. But in Paris, Montréal, San Francisco etc... you just bring more danger by human error than what you avoid for yourself.

100% security does not exist anywhere. If you have 99% security and can improve it without lowering security for other, OK, no problem. but if more security for YOU means less security for other then it is a negative use of your right.

A right, a liberty is by definition positive.
Using your right or liberty without care about other than yourself is always negative.

The result you have it in USA, You have the right to bear arms, you have death penality, accident with the weapons, justice errros with death penality and finally... more criminality than where we don't bear arms and don't use anymore death penality.

We have certainly a lot of things to learn from America (how to have performant and productive research and developments as example). But about balanced security and liberty... Forget it ;D

Just a personal experience some years ago. I was walking back home late in the evening when in a dark narrow street someone grabbed my shoulder and tunrned me 180° like a poddle and found myself facing a tall dark shape... The wave of scare was so intense that by automated reflex, I sent my fist full throttle in my "agressor's" face... This agressor was simply a (stupid but good bloke) neighbour who saw me passing by and made this f... joke. Fortunately I am not that strong and he recovered from a dark eye in a few day.We solved the conflict with some good drinks.

What would have happened if due to my right to self defense I had my hand gripped to a gun in my pocket ???

Bearing arms is not a right

Not in Europe anyway. I haven't seen one piece of actual evidence to back up any of the agitprop you guys spew. When asked to back an opinion, you just repeat more forcefully what you just said, as if I never asked any questions, and as if I did not understand you the first time. I get it, to a European, safety is more important than freedom, and a European will surrender large hunks of freedom for small increases in safety. Americans will not.

OK, Actually it goes like this:

ADAM! Ven arr you goink to answer zee kvestion?

Does it bother you Max that you were so wrong on the facts re the Dixie Chicks like you have been in so much else? No, of course not. What do facts have to do with anything? You will just change the subject, like zoomer does when he knows he is beaten, which is every time. And like Adam, who is such a pathetic wimp that he won't even respond to me. Whining like a whipped cur. I can see too that you are a beaten man Max.

Ooops bold off

Dad gum it Drive by,

I stopped in to lend a hand, but you covered the situation so well.
Socialism handicapping the able in the name of equality. Covered it.

Let me add that in America, the people with vigor and vision who create wealth don't do it in a vacuum. The Mel Gibsons make a blockbuster risking capital with huge reward, but Mel hires producers, cinematographers, grips, set designers, actors, popcorn salesmen, parking attendants, movie reviewers, plastic dashboard Jesus makers, etc... the list is endless.
Now tell me, in France you have distributors who want to ban this movie. Is this in the name of Equality? In the name of security?
Neither one really.
They want to take away Mr. Mel's liberty.
Would a controversial movie ever be made in France? I doubt it.
You might think of the endless march of documentaries by French film makers, on the evil's of America, as controversial. You would be wrong. Mike Moore is popular in France because being anti-American is not controversial in Europe. If Mike Moore made a documentary on how Euro policy is causing mass starvations in Africa, now that would be controversial in France. If he made a Documentary about how French graft is used to squelch reformists from running for office, that would be controversial.
Your Gov, Public, Media, wouldn't allow such a movie to be made. Theres the rub.
Anybody can go to a Mr.Video and rent Bowling for Columbine, in my country. Just most choose not to.
If someone proposed a film made in France with the title Bowling for Champagne critical of the hundred and fifty years of France living off the sweat of Africans in the Ivory Coast (which goes on unabated), well we both know that will never happen.

It must be irksome for Euros, who want to bring up America's treatment of minorities at the UN for instance, to have Colin Powell be the ear they would need to bend on the subject.

Pierre,
To answer your question, " What would have happened if due to my right to self defense I had my hand gripped to a gun in my pocket ???

I think if you were handling a gun, first you wouldn't have been consumed with fear from walking the street in the dark.
In your example, you wouldn't have lashed out and hit the joking fellow because you wouldn't have felt yourself in danger.

I'm not in a fight with you man, I'm just trying to understand your point of view, but it seems that you don't know what is objectivity. I'm going to think patriotism blinds you, you talk about freedom and you can't even make an autocriticism on your government, on your country, stop shaking your flag and come back on earth.
You're showing France with a dirty finger and says "look you're unclean"....

If French are arrogant, now they've found their masters.

Papertiger:
"Now tell me, in France you have distributors who want to ban this movie. Is this in the name of Equality? In the name of security?"

Just because distributors were afraid to show a movie with antisemitic thesis.

French Arrogance

Max,

It is a sort of joke I tell whenever I am driving. Whenever I see a Flag, I point it out and say "Look, we might be lost, but at least we're still in America"

so i'll call myself Ricardo, if your hero Smith is too important for you. As for answering your question, wich one? you always ask question without even asking yourself some question! Sure doctors emigrate to the usa, it's a much better salary, it's in the path of the elitist society you've become. The more elitist you became the more plane will crash on your buildings. if you want to return to the condition of life at the end of the 19 century go ahead. subjectivman!

I'm going to think patriotism blinds you, …

Max, I would use the word “nationalism” rather than “patriotism” in your sentence.

Why? As one of the founders of neo-conservatism (Irving Kristol) says: “Patriotism springs from love of the nation’s past; nationalism arises out of hope for the nation’s future, distinctive greatness….. The goals of American foreign policy must go well beyond a narrow, too literal definition of ‘national security’…” Of course, Kristol is following the argument of Kenneth Minogue (an historian of nationalism, if you will) who makes the following definitions: “Patriotism…. is essentially conservative, a desire to defend your country as it actually is. Nationalism is devoted to an ideal, abstract, unrealized notion of your country, often coupled with a belief in some wider national mission to humanity.”

Got the differences? Good.

Now, I know you are not going to go out and read anything by Kristol, so may I be so bold as to refer you to La Trahison des Clercs (The Treason of the Intellectuals) which, if I remember correctly speaks of the corruption of European intellectuals by nationalism. (Written in 1928)

I have a copy in my library, which has not been read in maybe 20 years. Perhaps it is time to dust it off and read it again….

Drive By get this:

to a European, safety is more important than freedom, and a European will surrender large hunks of freedom for small increases in safety. Americans will not.

freedom vs safety, this is a pretty subject for load of lyrism and great sentences like "better dying on our feets than living on our knees" or "rather 100 days like a lion than 100 years like a sheep" etc. All that stuff is very common in words and exceptional in facts.

but is this arm bearing a good example of this "freedom/security" choice ?

To me, this looks more like a "myself/others" security choice. It is what I tried to tell in my previous post and I hoped you would catch it. But you just kept the six first words. So I will try again:

It is absolutely fantastic to ride a powerfull fast motorbike on a curvy road. If I am alone on the world, no problem, I am fully right to choose the pleasure of speed rather than the security of common driving rules. But I am not alone. a walker by can pay the consequence of my choice. For this walker, freedom might be walking along this road, watching at the birds flying axpecting that the drivers will manage to keep their path ON the road?

So the choice here is not anymore "security/freedom" but rather "myself/others" freedom choice like for security with the weapons.

As long as I don't look beyond MY personal preference between this or that, my decision cannot be wise because narrow minded and selfish.

If I rather try to balance my preferences and respect of others, I can be wrong, too selfish or too altruist but at least I see larger and have better chance to find something accepatable if not perfect.

This is commonly illustrated by "My freedom (should) stops where begin freedom for other ones"

another of those beautyfull sentences commonly told and exceptionnaly applied...

Pierre,

The anamnesis you may be groping after is:

"Your right to swing your fist stops at the other fellow's nose."

-- US Supreme Court Judge Oliver Wendell Holmes

DGB

To save you the trouble of reading the thread.

Adam said:
When fenchmen or anyone opposing your view said something about your country, you don't answer and you fight back with an attack

And I said:
Please provide an example of what you are talking about and I will be happy to answer you.

And Adam replied:
don't give up mocking my nickname and my english it's so intelligent

And I said, Answer the question , what instances?

And you said
. As for answering your question, wich one? you always ask question without even asking yourself some question!

And I ask again for an example of what you mean.

Pierre,
I hear you. You believe that ones liberties end where there is the potential for harm to another, driving fast on a road, owning a gun. In America, we believe that ones liberty ends when one actually harms another. This is why we think the French are cowards.

We value human freedom higher than complete safety, which is impossible in any case.
Europeans don't. This is not because we don't understand the true nature of freedom, but becuase we do, and do not fear our fellow man the way you seem to.

We look at Afghanistan and Iraq and say 10s of millions of people no longer liver under terrorist, totalitarian regimes. Millions of refugees have returned to Afghanistan. You say, 200 Europeans were killed in Madrid, therefore our efforts failed. Cowardice and surrender is how I would characterize it.

During the Cold War, the Soviet Union threatened Europe, rolled its tanks into Czeko-Slovakia and Afghanistan. The United States stood by Western Europe at the risk of nuclear attack ON OUR HOME SOIL, for decades. We even tried to do the same thing for non-whites, in Viet Nam, and you hate us for it.

And Max, If you really want to discuss this stuff, let it be a two way conversation. Don't just throw out an attack, let me answer it, ignore my answer and throw out another attack. If you want to start fresh, start here: Explain to me in actual examples how patriotism limits freedom in the United States.

Here's how it should work: If I respond to your example, then you are expected to either defend your view with further examples, or indisputable logic, or concede the point. If you claim indisputible logic, then if I give a counterexample to your logic, then your logic has been disproven. These are not all of the rules, common sense dictates some. Its really a pretty simple game, anyone can play it, and it is a good way to get to the heart of nearly any matter. It also has a way, if played properly, of getting each side to examine their own assumptions.

OK Damian,

Your right to swing your fist stops at the other fellow's nose

The theory is "The tool does not matter, what count is how we use it".

The reality is "sooner or later, we will make an inapropriate use with some of our tools".

My personal preference is "I prefere making a fault I can pay with a good drink session than a fault I CANNOT pay, even with the remaining of my days in jail..."

Pierre,

Sorry to say, I can't always follow the procession of your thought.

But never causing more injury than a round of drinks can't smooth down seems like sound policy. And, yes, greatly preferrable to slip-ups requiring serious jail time.

Slante,
DGB

sooner or later, we will make an inapropriate use with some of our tools

This is why we Americans say that Europe has not yet recovered from the last big war. Germany still cannot get its mind around what it has done, and France cannot accept that it surrendered to evil without putting up a greater fight. Deep down you French are cowards, and that is a cowardly statement of fear of your fellow man.

Yep Drive By... This one is right:

This is why we Americans say that Europe has not yet recovered from the last big war.

But uncomplete. You may add to the list WW1 and, for France the shame of torure during Algerian war.

cowardice would rather apply to us in the Algerian war than WWII. WWII defeat was rather matter of total unefficience than cowardice.

So the European have too much experience of war, destruction, civilian losses. It's a dimension of war you, American can only understand with your brain but not feel in your gut. For you,since sessession war, the battleswhere always somwhere else. Also, due to "progress", since XXth century the civilians are much more targeted during war than in the previous centuries.
I don't forget 9/11 but we can't compare a ponctual "single shot" mass murder by terrorism to a round the clock carpet bombing going on day after day, month after month.
This weight of our history where great moments are mixed with dramatic faults, failures and suffering can explain why we cheer that much the European Union despite our old nationalist minds. It is not complet random if Germany anf France despite or because their opposite characters are the more active in building this European Union.

When we tell "War is the last thing to do" you go beyond the words and understand "Accept anything, all surrendering and submission to avoid a war". But the meaning is just in the words "War is the last thing to do". Understand that sometimes there is no other way than this last thing.

Understand that sometimes there is no other way than this last thing.

Do you think that Americans do not believe this? We just think that we have reached that point when terrorist harboring nations attack us. We are not willing to live in fear, as are you, apparently. We would rather solve the problem. Our history with Japan, Germany, and the Soviet Union, not to mention the British and French Empires offer us lessons too. Machiavelli was right when he said that avoiding war on the enemies terratory only ensures that it will be fought on your territory. Decades of US policy vs terrorism, Republican and Democrat, up to 9-11 only serves as another object lession in this matter.

And before you go on that 9-11 wasn't related to Iraq, remember that the mastermind of the bombing of the World Trade Center in '93 was found in Iraq, where Saddam had given him sanctuary, after the recent war. So if you are going to claim, as European opinion holds, that the two are separate, please explain that fact.

Also, you post does nothing to counter my statement, a belief which I only came to during this exchange of the past few days, that the French fear their fellow man, and therefore fear the liberty of their fellow man. Europeans simply cannot trust their neighbors with freedom.

OK, Drive By

you post does nothing to counter my statement

May be it is because I was not focused to counter your statement but rather wished to bring you a clue about why europeans are (very recently and may be too much) concerned about security and peacefull relashionship.

The problem about freedom is not lack of trust with our fellow man. Just the reverse : we FULLY 100% TRUST our fellowman and ourself to... make some errors by time. When this is known, we can find a balance between security and freedom.

100% security does not exist. Life is so dangerous that nobody can get out of it alive...

100% freedom... what is it? doing all what I want, just what I want when I want?
If so, like 100% security, it does not exist. as soon as more than one man apply this, they must stop because a conflict occures. Humans are socials animals. To survive, we need to live in groups, towns, lands, nations. By this we, as individuals must give up some of our own satisfaction to keep a global consistence.

How much and what is worthy to give up is completely dependent of the group where we live.

Let's forget the guns to think about a very basic freedom : "come and go". You have in USA two borders to Mexico and Canada. both are highly protected. You must stop, wait in a file, show papers, answer to questions etc.
Europe is full of borders and you can cross load of of them today without stoping. if you are in Netherlands, you can find yousel suddenly in Germany or Belgium without noticing you crossed a border.
It may seems crazy for you because then the terrorist, bandits etc. can travel and flee from here to there very easyly. But for us, the freedom to come and go is basic, essential. So we can give up some safety in exchange of this freedom while an American prefere stronger controls to get more safety.
May be it is simply because the whole EU is smaller than the USA? but in this matter, the Europe/USA balance freedom/security in inverted.

Back to the guns now. It seems very important for you to keep the "basic freedom" to own those f.. toys. For that, you are ready to accept all the accidents from wrong handling, madness etc. OK, it's your choice. But for myself I strictly have no idea what "freedom" I can get from a personal gun in daily life which worth the simple risk to shoot in my own foot.

Ah, fine !!!

Understand that sometimes there is no other way than this last thing.
Do you think that Americans do not believe this? We just think that we have reached that point when terrorist harboring nations attack us.

It is fine because here we forget the carricatural "warmonger/peacenick" deaf opposition to think about the real question:

When is a war the only solution left?

Such a question need more than one thread of 1xx comments to be sorted out. All the books in all libraries are not even enough... But a common (and quite realistic) statement is "war is the only solution left when it will (or has already) happend anyway".
Indeed it seems since 9/11 that war from Al Quaeda is already going on.
And the fact is that USA was backed by most countries, including arab nations to topple the Mollah Omar an the Taliban's regime.
The problems started with the Iraq invasion. We never could see why this war (still unfinished) in Afghanistan had to be extended IMMEDIATELY to Iraq. Don't forget, this opposition did not come just from Frogistan but from most parts of Worldistan. By this, and the amount of heteroclite argumentation tried to explain why it was suddenly so urgent to invade Iraq, the consensus was broken. And the current disinvolt US administration attitude "No WMD? after all, we don't care, we where right anyway" won't help to recover the cohesion we need between our countries.

From the excellent website linked by Steph, here is a cartoon which summarize quit well how I see theAfghanistan to Iraq "evolution"

This one is completely out topic but I like it ;D

Cannon,

"No one gets turned away".... true but that's precisely why your medical system is a mess where only the stong (well-off) survives . You don't expect nobody is going to pay for unpaid bills, do you?

Iraq sheltered Ransey Youseff. Ransey Youseff is known to be the mastermind behind the bombing of the WTC. He is the nephew of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, known Al Quaeda figure. Deal with it, the war in Iraq is part of the war on terrorism in general, and Al Quaeda in particular. There is circumstantial evidence, Yousef and Terry Nichols were in the philipines on the same island at the same time, that ties Al Quaeda and Iraq to the Oklahoma City bombing.

And as far as liberty goes, rationalize your position as you wish, you fear it. Economic liberty is far more inportant than the right to bear arms, it is just that you always want to discuss that one, since you seem to believe that it puts the US in a bad light.

Lack of economic freedom is what is harming France, not gun control. Gun control is just a symptom of a deeper problem that France has with freedom. Lack of economic freedom is what is driving your achievers to leave. This fear and obsession with security is just a symptom of your nation's lack of confidence in itself. I almost feel sorry for you.

"No one gets turned away".... true but that's precisely why your medical system is a mess where only the stong...

Can anybody translate this for me? What is he trying to say?

Americans, who produce a wholly disproportionate share of the world's new life-saving drugs, are being asked to imitate price control policies in countries where such policies have dried up the costly research behind such discoveries. These countries have left the development of new drugs to the United States. But if we follow their example by killing the goose that lays the golden egg, who can we turn to for developing new medicines? This could be the most costly free lunch of all - Thomas Sowell

For our Canadian friend,

The old adage about giving a man a fish versus teaching him to fish has been updated by a reader: Give a man a fish and he will ask for tartar sauce and French fries! Moreover, some politician who wants his vote will declare all these things to be among his "basic rights" - Thomas Sowell

"basic rights" such as universal health care for instance.

...and about that little old lady waiting for her chemo treatment in Vancouver.

Shortages where the government sets prices have been common in countries around the world, for centuries on end, whether these shortages have taken the form of waiting lists, black markets, or other ways of coping with the fact that what people demand at an artificially low price exceeds what other people will supply at such prices. This principle is not limited to medical care. There were waiting lines for food, undershirts, and all sorts of other things in the Communist bloc countries in Eastern Europe before the collapse of Communism in that region. You had to get on a waiting list to buy a poorly made car in India before they began to free up their economy from government controls. You could go back literally thousands of years and find shortages under price controls in the Roman Empire or in ancient Babylon. But it is still front-page news today because elementary economics has not yet sunk in. - Thomas Sowell

for my american friend:

LOW-INCOME FAMILIES' ACCESS TO CHILD CARE SHRINKS
AS STATES CUT CHILD CARE ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS

Children's Defense Fund Report Highlights Need for Additional Federal Funding

Washington, DC - The Children's Defense Fund (CDF) today released a report showing that states, facing budget crises and shrinking federal funds, continued to cut child care subsidies in 2003 for low-income working families. The report found an increase of 10 percent in additional children being placed on waiting lists for child care assistance from 2002 to 2003.

CDF's report shows that funding cuts have affected child care assistance in a variety of ways: Many more families have been put on waiting lists; fewer families are eligible for assistance because income eligibility limits have been lowered; parent co-pays have increased; and provider reimbursements have been reduced.

States have also eliminated or reduced funding for quality initiatives such as professional development and training for providers; improvements in infant and toddler care, as well as improvements in pre-kindergarten programs, and school-age programs. These steps have severely limited low-income working families' access to high quality, affordable child care and early education. The report finds that in 2003:

550,000 children were on waiting lists in 23 states;
Sixteen states reduced eligibility levels so that fewer children in need qualify for assistance;
Nine states cut funding for after-school care; and
Nine states scaled back prekindergarten initiatives that improve access to early learning.

The report further finds that, absent additional investments from the federal government, the situation for children in need of child care and early education programs is not likely to improve anytime soon-and could grow worse. States that have managed to avoid major cuts so far have often done so by using up reserves or one-time funding that will no longer be available.

As Congress considers budget plans for 2005, CDF is calling on U.S. Senators and Representatives to support children and families in their states who need child care assistance. One major source of federal funding for child care is the Child Care and Development Block Grant (CCDBG), which provides federal funds to support child care assistance to more than two million children. But only one out of seven children eligible for this assistance actually received it in 2003. Without additional child care funds, at least 200,000 children will lose the support they currently have, while millions more will receive no help at all.

"This new report makes it clear that Congress cannot turn a blind eye to the needs of millions of low-income working families struggling to raise their children without the resources to care for them properly," said Marian Wright Edelman, President of the Children's Defense Fund. "We urge members of Congress to make sure every child in every state has access to quality child care."

heh You prove my point for me. If the State was not involved in Health care, Doctors would not be paid artificially low prices that barely cover their insurance premiums. There would be incentive for our young and able people to become Doctors. The Doctors would not be overburdened by State mandated "wellness" visits. Lines would dissappear. Beaurocrats wouldn't be shuffling forms to decide who gets treatment and who doesn't qualify.
And Doctors who are well paid and under worked would be well disposed to take probono cases.

Adam, you keep posting articles that prove we are not Canada, what you need to do is post articles that show actual harm that results from not being Canada. We know that we do not giva a handout for every human need.

People are expected to work for a living here to satisfy their needs. Once you define all needs as rights, you will have destroyed the incentive to work, where the fulfillment of needs comes from.

Well it is a bit late, but since none bothered to answer that Oil for food question, here's a link.

As for Timmerman, please refrain from comments like "this was a mainstream story in the US". It was not. I wouldn't go as far as suggesting that he's a bozo and nobody cares about what he has to say, but if not then it means that there probably isn't much free press in the US (except for Tech Central, of course).

So you give me a link to Liberation, which publishes a straight denial by the UN, and you do a limited search on google.

Try this one

Here are a couple of goodies.
Chirac's Lies and the War in Iraq

Or this one The French War for Oil

I would be very interested in any facts that you could present to refute Timmerman's argument. I don't expect to see them though. You guys never have any facts to back up your statements, ever.

"You guys never have any facts to back up your statements, ever

Like: "There are WMD in Iraq (and some of them can be deployed in 45 minutes)"?

I'm not going to refute Timmerman's arguments, since I am not going to buy his book. Pavefrance is free: much better deal, probably same amount of crap.

probably the same amount of crap

Trust thy media totally. How sweet, just like Jerry in the '30s and '40s, or today, for that matter. Don't preach to me about a free press.

As for WMD, what is with all the barrels of the pesticides that Saddam had hidden in camoflaged bunkers?

A look back at Bhopal shows that insecticides can be the next thing to nerve gas, or converted to the same thing. This failure to find WMDs amounts to failure to find incontrovertable proof of WMDs, meaning that no cover story, however unlikely, is possible.

Here is one that you will love and hate at the same time:

In December 1988, Dow Chemical sold $1.5 million of pesticides to Iraq, despite U.S. government concerns that they could be used as chemical warfare agents. An Export-Import Bank official reported in a memorandum that he could find "no reason" to stop the sale, despite evidence that the pesticides were "highly toxic" to humans and would cause death "from asphyxiation."

Washington Post 2002

So when the US sells them to Iraq, they are chemical weapons, when the US finds them in Iraq, they are merely pesticides.

So the