And isn't it time we got back to hating...the French? Enjoy, y'all - it's my Friday gift to you. (please right-click and save the link target)
déjà vu.
Geeeez... It seems that this video has reached the very bottom of humor !?!
You want a really funny T.V. show, look for the daily show with Jon Stewart so funny...Mess-o-potamia lol
Sad but completely true.
OPEN LETTER TO LORNE MICHAELS, FEBRUARY 15th
Executive Producer, Saturday Night Live
Executive Producer, Late Night with Conan O'Brien
Dear Mr Michaels
Miquelon.org is a Toronto based watchdog group dedicated to documenting French-Bashing and Anti-French activity and monitoring the news and entertainment media.
It has come to our attention that two major NBC shows under your stewardship have shown themselves to be profoundly anti-French in the last two years. We are alarmed at the nature of the verbal attacks being aimed at the French and French-Canadians by the writers and performers of SNL and Late Night with Conan O’Brien.
On April 19th, 2002, a sketch on Saturday Night Live featured a mock tourism advertisement for France. The transcript reads as follows:
« France. Home to the world's greatest painters, chefs.. and anti-Semites. The French. Cowardly, yet opinionated. Arrogant, yet foul-smelling. Anti-Israel, Anti-American, and, of course, as always, Jew-hating. Paris. The city of whores. Dog feces on every corner. And effite men yelling anti-Semitic remarks at children. The real creme de la creme of world culture. With all that's going on in the world, isn't it about time we got back to hating the French? »
Holding all French people collectively and perpetually responsible for past and present anti-Semitic crimes is not only unfair, it fosters a skewed collective resentment among new generations of Americans at a time when understanding of other cultures should be fostered.
On February 13th 2004, a piece on Late Night with Conan O’Brien featured a sketch with Robert Smigel which contained a number of anti-Quebecois, anti-French comments :
«I can tell you're French – I can smell your crotch from here»
«Quebecqueer Street »
«Rue de Pussies»
«This is North-America, speak English»
This material not only ignited a storm of controversy in Canada, Canadian politicians of all parties have condemned it. From Alexa McDonough, Mauril Bélanger to Stephen Harper, the disapproval has been unanimous. Many editorials and columnists have expressed the same level of dismay.
What also worries us profoundly is the impact of the material aired on SNL and similar programs. According to a survey conducted by The Pew Research Center, 21 % of young people aged 18 to 29 said they get their campaign news from Saturday Night Live's Weekend Update and Jon Stewart's The Daily Show.
We hope you understand our concerns and that you will do your best to correct the excesses of some of your writers and performers.
Yours truly,
Marc Saint-Aubin du Cormier
ROFL! Thanks, that was great. You indict anti-Frenchness in the same breath that you excuse anti-semitism. Sure, this is a time when understanding of other cultures should be fostered - but what makes you think one of them should be "French"?
Bitemybaguette :
Sad but completely true ? Yes with a lot of emphasis.
"This material not only ignited a storm of controversy in Canada, Canadian politicians of all parties have condemned it. From Alexa McDonough, Mauril Bélanger to Stephen Harper, the disapproval has been unanimous. Many editorials and columnists have expressed the same level of dismay." - Marc Saint-Aubin du Cormier
I might give your dissatisfaction with the U.S. Media some thoughtful reflection, alas, all I hear is the sound of canadians booing my country's national anthem.
I think that you and your french friends have it all wrong when you attempt to correct our 'misguided?' criticism of france and all that she stands for.
Your arguments are predicated on a belief that we hate you.
This is a fallacy. You confuse contempt with hatred. For us to hate france, we would have to accept the premise that we care about france.
Unfortunately for you, Americans could care less about france and what it thinks is important.
Why don't you stop wasting your time trying to convert us to a french-loving state and spend time preparing for your meeting with allah.
The Canadians took Jacque the insult dog way way better then the Miquelon did. I know, because right after they elected a non Frog as Top Dog.
In the future you might write your pissy, bitching notes(designed to inhibit someones freedom of speech) to a network besides NBC. NBC has balls. NBC will tell you to go screw yourself. Better, NBC will take your pissy bitching note and make another sketch out of it, to taunt you a second time.
French are anti-semite .
What a joke.
I wonder how long some people will live with this fantasy.
god bless them.
papertiger,
what election? and if you talk about Paul Martin, guess what, he's french canadian, as for the insult dog, i can tell the difference between it and your president.
NBC has no balls. They know they can get away with it without some French group suing. They would't dare go that far with Mexicans or Asians. It's politically-correct racism à l'americaine , the same that went on with the Irish, Italians, Chinese and Japanese... now the French. It will pass.
huh? was it supposed to be funny?
zoomerx, we only started liking Japan after we leveled all of their major industrial centers, firebombed their capitol repeatedly, dropped a couple of nukes on them, occupied their country, re-wrote their constitution, completely reordered their entire society, and then stationed hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops there for decades just to keep an eye on things.
If we can do that with France I'm sure relations would improve dramatically.
When can we start?
Richard
Im sure you missed the election, mostly because Canadians have no say what so ever in who their leader will be. No vote equals no interest for Canadians.
zoomer
French group suing? For what? Definition of character? Mexicans and Asians have a sense of humor. On Mad TV (a comedy skit show) there is a recuring bit with an Asian lady. The comedy is how no one understands what she is saying. On SNL the Killer Bees are a spoof of Pancho Villa. Yet no one sues over hurt feelings.
This is a singular French interpretation of the law. Hurt Feelings Jesus K righst!
Get over your self already.
"My people are with sickness much enfeebled,
My numbers lessened, and those few I have
Almost no better than so many French;"
William Shakespeare -- Henry V
Insulting the French has been an Anglo passtime since forever. I would think that you would be used to it by now. I sometimes think that the "cheese eating surrender monkeys" jibe is the first one that you guys actually understood since it is pretty much on your infantile level.
Milktoast,
I would think that you would be more concerned about free speech than the insults of a puppet.
'Canada is a pleasantly authoritarian country," Alan Borovoy, general counsel of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, said a few years ago. An example of what he means is Bill C-250, a repressive, anti-free-speech measure that is on the brink of becoming law in Canada. It would add "sexual orientation" to the Canadian hate propaganda law, thus making public criticism of homosexuality a crime.
Stomping on free speech US News
Milktoast. What will happen if it ever comes to pass that, for instance due to corruption scandals that your lily-livered press won't cover ever do get the attention they deserve and your side is no longer in control of what people can see and hear? Are you really totally comfortable with handing your basic liberties over to your govt?
A recent flurry of cases has mostly gone against free expression. The Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission ruled that a newspaper ad listing biblical passages that oppose homosexuality was a human-rights offense. The commission ordered the paper and Hugh Owens, the man who placed the ad, to pay $1,500 each to three gay men who objected to it.
Hooray for your side Milktoast.
I can't get over this. Imagine what would be said about Bush if the US Govt made laws that ban the advocacy of homosexuality? He would rightly be compare to a fascist. Yet that would be the same thing from the point of view of a neutral observer. You have much bigger problems than an insult dog, or even this blog.
Oh, and sorry, I have been mis-spelling MilqueToast
Many apologies...
what's an english speaking individual living in Quebec called? "a filthy anglo" who get crap on everyday of the year, just ask some of the Jews, Pakis and Italians inbred.
Canada? law against free-speech?, my god we heard about the Janet Jackson affair for month. For a single boob! she even makes public apologize for that! american and free-speech( Bill Maher, dixie chicks etc.) as for Shakespeare he just remembers 1066.
My point is "Anglos" are viewed here as idiots, and whatever they do or say we dont give a rat's ass, and least yankees idiot from the south.
"hostie d'anglos de fif" would be very insulting if you greet with that title to an english speaking person in Quebec
The passion of the quebec anglophone, a minority alone and persecuted in a "non-anglo continent".
They would be better off moving to Ontario or the South, most of them did, nowadays, Anglos who still lived there are mostly those who migrated here after WW2 (Italians, Greek, Jews) and now those from the former british colonies, mostly Hindu and Pakis.
"Bill Maher, dixie chicks etc"
Let's see. Bill Maher has his own show on HBO.
The Dixie Chicks have been enjoying huge sales, and what was that other one? Janet Jackson? Last I checked she was raking in the moolah too. Nowhere was she prevented from speaking, nor was she fined for speech. Of course none of these "small facts" get in the way of your larger point, which is?
UH my point is if you allowed boobs exposing on TV, that would encourage black kids who watch it and then go to a white neighbohood raping all the white kids, that wasn't hard to grasp was it?
Wow. You are soo smart! You are still the one who lives under a proto-fascist regime.
What are you going to do when the US decides that Soviet Canuckistan doesn't have enough Navy to defend your half of the continent from intruders? Although you 'claim' the far north, as the planet warms, it becomes far more accessable, and you can't hold on to it.
It seems like a good idea now to freeload off of our military, I am sure. Good luck in the future. As ever Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
Indeed I'm smarter than you, I can speak two languages, you only one, therefore I'm smarter than you.
Anglophone in Quebec are dumb anyway.
You call that jibberish, which is the laughingstock of the Francophone world, a language? I guess that you can look down your nose at Haitian creole, but really. What do you call route 15 anyway? Kaynze? I laugh every time I hear it.
Mayeau,
Asian as well as Hispanics have complained, even sued in the past for overtly racist comments and they can because they have a strong lobby in the US. The French don't because they do not have a strong representation in the US. That SNL skid is racist, period. You'd be up in arms if a French skid portrayed Americans as openly racist biggots wouldn't you?
It's truly laughable when Americans pontificate about anti-semitic incidents in France (no mention of Germany where it's actually far worst, Belgium or even the UK)while your "God-fearing" nation has been at the forefront of open, even legal discrimination - against the Chinese and more recently African-Americans. Even more laughable to hear recently dicovered tapes of Nixon and "The Good Reverent" Billy Graham making openly anti-semitic remarks during breakfast at the White House...
Anti-semitism is an international problem. Blaming the French while watching CNN is just convenient right now.
As far as Mexicans having a "sense of humour"... I was reading recently about American hispanic groups formerly complaining about the "illegal alien" label as being "racist"...
Pontificate, pontificate, pontificate. Oh zoomerx, how you love that word.
So, because you have read about a tape of Nixon and Graham, Americans can not call the French anti-Semitic? And because anti-Semitism is on the rise in Europe, worse in other countries than France (so you say….), we should not say anything about French anti-Semitism? Zoomerx, my poor misguided soul.
I love how the French PONTIFICATE about anti-Semitic incidents in America, while your secular nation has been at the forefront of the slave trade and discrimination against Jew$.
Zoomerx, not to mention recent “racist” events in France, please do not forget your history, young man.
How about Frances involvement in the Slave trade? Forgotten about that have we? “..part of French mercantile prosperity…. came from the capture or purchase of African slaves, their transport to America, and their sale there for work on the plantations.” It was not just on American plantations they worked. “French investors owned most of the soil and industries in Guadeloupe and Martinique, where 30,000 whites used 480,000 slaves.” So, before you PONTIFICATE to me about discrimination, etc against African-Americans, please, please, please do not forget your part in this.
Also, since you bring up the history of anti-Semitism with Nixon-Graham, let us review a little more French history that you seem to have forgotten. Can you say Vichy? Can you say Statut des Juifs? Although you French will blame the Germans, the Germans were dependent on Vichy’s assistance for the execution off the policies toward the Jews (deportation, selling of assets, not allowing to own businesses, etc). You can not blame the Germans for the French press and radio that actively engaged in anti-Jewi$h propaganda. You can not blame the Germans for business that put up signs such as Les Freres Lissac ne sont pas les Freres Isaac. It is no wonder that many French DID NOT LOOK ON THE AMERICANS AS A LIBERATION FORCE.
Yeah, PONTIFICATE my fuckin’ ass.
Zoomer
You mention Asian and Mexicans suing for hurt feelings. I don't believe it. Show me.
andy,
I have never said that there is no racism in France, of course there is. But why singeling out France now? Because it's politically-correct. Clearly, SNL took advantage of it. I don't think it was funny. I can take the "foul-smelling" and "surrender" stereotypes, but not the "anti-semite" joke, sorry.
If you want to go as far back as 1940, Vichy France etc... fine (Holland actually deported far more Jews than France... strange too how you seem to be giving the Germans a free pass and dismiss the horrors they commited, and not just againt Jews), I could remind you that we never barred Blacks from eating or pissing in the same establishments, only 40 years ago. Not even Germany.
In a letter to Ed Koch in the New York Times in which he stated that France is any more anti-semite than any other nation, Woody Allen asked what was the difference between a few misplaced statements or incidents in France and garbage coming from - to name a few - Jessie Jackson, Nixon or Billy Graham? Finally, I will remind you that by large, the most violent incidents were perpetrated by young "muslims", so spare me with your sweeping generalizations.
papertiger,
Here you go again... no link therefore it's a "lie". I read the US news everyday, I'm also quite familiar with SNL and US culture, having spent extended time there. Yes, I remember reading about a American-Korean group complaining at the "Tonight Show" host for making insensitive remarks about "dog-eating" Koreans (OK, no proof that they threatened to sue, but got to meet with TV executives). On FoxNews, an attorney representing Hispanics was complaining (and threatening a lawsuit - ridiculous, I agree) about the "illegal alien" word and its "racist connotation" against Hispanics. Do a search, maybe you'll find it. I was just answering an earlier post in which someone claimed that Asians and Hispanics at least have a sense of humour. Well... that depends on how far you are willing stretch your jokes, isn't it? SNL would not get away with jokes about Arabs being "terrorists", would they?
Anyway, do you need a link everytime I have to tell you the US is certainly not immune to racism? Get real.
Now listen to my story 'bout a man named Abdul
A poor Arab man, barely kept his belly full
Then one day he was shootin' at some Jews
And up from the ground came a bubblin' crude
Oil, that is
Persian Perrier
Saudi Soda
Tehran Tea
The next thing you know it, Abdul's a billionaire
His kinfolk said, 'Abdul, move away from there.'
They said, 'Califony is the place with out a care.'
So, they loaded up the Rolls and they moved to Bel Air
Next to Beverly Hills that is
Swimmin pools, movies stars
Jo-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-s
{to the tune of the balad of the Beverly hillbillies}
From a SNL skit.
Making fun of the French isn't racism. Making fun of the Germans isn't racism.
You socialists wear your victimhood like a robe.
Get over yourself.
If you want to file a complaint about perceved racism from the United States Government, take it up with the office of the Secretary of State, Colin L. Powell
"Canada? law against free-speech?, my god we heard about the Janet Jackson affair for month. For a single boob! she even makes public apologize for that! american and free-speech( Bill Maher, dixie chicks etc.) as for Shakespeare he just remembers 1066." - Adam Retardo
You seem to be confused about freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech means you have the right to say what you want without the government throwing you in prison and depriveing you of your life and property. All the cases you sighted fail to address this point.
Everyone of your examples said what they wanted to say and are still free to this day to make any other comments they see fit.
How can you complain about abuse of their freedom to speak and not understand that everyone else has the same freedom to disagree with their point of view? If you make a living by providing entertainment or information to the public then you are responsable for the consequences of how that produict is received.
You have the right to say what you want here and we have the right to dismiss and delete your comments from our environment.
Just so you know, I am ashamed that the Dixie Chicks are from Texas.
As for 1066, the normans relocate to England get a taste of a better life then come back to kick frances ass (Grecy, Poiters, etc. etc. etc.) it just shows that the smart ones leave france as soon as they get a chance.
Holland actually deported far more Jews than France... strange too how you seem to be giving the Germans a free pass and dismiss the horrors
Amazing how you always defend the actions of France by pointing out the bad behavior of other countries. Well, they did it too, and worse, so it is OK that France did it.
We are not giving the Germans a free pass, but this is Pave FRANCE….remember?
"I could remind you that we never barred Blacks from eating or pissing in the same establishments"
Yeah, 'egalite', everybody gets to shit and piss in the same hole in the floor. You wouldn't be so afraid of your Muslims if you treated them properly. We had a problem with blacks, we have learned something over the decades. Things have improved steadily. That's why we don't worry about them killing us with bombs, they know we are trying, and we are. Your Muslims know you are not trying, and they are pissed off.
And congratulations to the Habs. That was a great game last night.
We had a "problem" with blacks
Understatement of the year.
Drive-by, I'm not going to deny that there are social problems in France among immigrants and "integration" into French society. You, on the other side, have had a horrendous record with blacks leading by far in teenage pregnency, out-of-wedlock babies, drug-related crime, jail incarceration, illiteracy etc... 3 out of 5 black baby in the US does not have a father. My God.
Again, who's talking?
No andy, it's not "OK", not from France nor from Holland, it's not what I meant to say. You do have a point about this site being an anti-French-only site.
Drive-by,
You're comparing apples and oranges. The average French muslim - especially the radical ones - is fairly "new" to French culture, 2nd, 3rd generation. Blacks in America have been there from the begining. So yes, you're "doing better". It's the very least you can do. The fact remains that race polarization is far more evident (and dangerous) in the US in large suburban areas such as Chicago, Washington D.C., L.A.... I've seen it myself.
Zoomer
You are describing symptoms of the liberal disease. The condescending mindset of the remnant of the Slave holders of old. Democrats fetishise their belief that blacks are inferior, by perpetuating Government assistance for the underpriveleged black folk.
How else can you explain the abrogation of responsability by Black men for their progeny in America? They do not need fear for their children because Democrats dogma teaches blackmen that their children will be cared for by the country. Not just cared for, cared for better then a blackman could care for them.
Which is, of course, the worst of lies.
Poverty sucks, doesn't it, Papertiger?
Did the state of Blacks in America dramatically improve under Reagan or Bush Sr by the way?
Welfare is state mandated poverty. A person can get a job much more easily here then in your country. No regs to avoid. Blacks comprise 13% of the population of the US. but their collective wealth surpasses the wealth of Canada.
We have no black state per say. Yes blacks on the whole did benefit from Republican economics. Still are. Will always.
By the way. The Janet Jackson boob incident and subsequient FCC witchhunt are being perpitrated by
the Godless Democrats. Not us puritan Republicans.
Seems the other side really does see it as a freedom of speech issue. From Neil Bortz via Instapundit:
I know that many of you are fond of pinning the responsibility for the new, draconian FCC on George Bush and those evil Republicans. So ... this reminder. The FCC Commissioner who is pushing the hardest on all of this so-called "indecency" is Michael J. Copps. Copps is the former chief of staff to South Carolina's Democratic Senator Ernest Hollings, a Democrat. Hollings has never been known for his defense of first amendment rights for broadcasters. Copps is a Democrat, not a Republican.
Southern Democrats * phffft
thanks Drive-by! go habs go!
as for S.Waz i remember a news on cnn about a girl who got arrested in a market for wearing a no-war t-shirt. Is it enough for you. By the way the one hundred years war was a civil war between french...
I remember reading in La Presse about an american who was stoned to death for driving a car with a Bush Cheney sticker. Can't find the link for you, but you can believe me, because I would never make anything up to support a weak argument.
Why don't you show me how to link an article? I've been asking for weeks, no one wants to help me. That's racist!
Zoomerx:
http://www.instapundit.com/archives/000536.php
Our Blacks are better off than the average Swede!
sorry about that zoomer.
Here goes
First you copy the link then you make a HTML sentence.
Just like you do with an Italized word.
You use tags which look like this <i>Italized</i> except instead of using the <i> tag you use the atribute tag which looks like this <a>.
so you start with the <a href=" then you paste the link "> then the discriptive word that you want to appear on the page followed by quotation marks "</a> and the close attrib tag.
so the complete HTML sentence will look like this in the comment window
<a href="http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/General/Internet/WWW/HTMLPrimerPrintable.html#UR"> html explained better then I could do it"</a> , and will look like this on the comment section after you post it html explained better then I could do it
now just click the link and save it in case you fuck up and need a reference.
Now that was a killer link. The Swedes admit it themselves. The same is true for Canadians, according to Mark Steyn anyway. And a quick drive through Quebec will support the contention that socialism has made Canadians poorer than even 'poor' Americans.
Thank you Papertiger.
You want links, drive-by, I'll give you links ;-)
A "couple" of Swedes, Drive-by. Highly questionable. You can argue all you want but I would not dare to compare Sweden or Canada's level of social ills with that of the US - violent crime, jail incarceration, underage pregnancy, illiteracy etc (ironically improportionally led by poor blacks) - in which you clearly lead the industrialized world.
a question for drive-by, are you living in Montreal, have you live there?
Zoomerex,
It's not like France has any problems with, oh, I don't know, rampant Gang Rape or anything (http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/1202/crime/bellil.htm). My favorite quote from that article: The French Police are afraid to patrol the banlieue because there might be violence.
Apparently French egalitarianism includes allowing you to continue any barbaric practice from the "old world." France is dying, and I could care less.
You're so dramatic , FRB...
Anyone could cut and post some American inner-city horror story, there's no shortage of it on the news. Ever noticed how the worst cases of child molestation, children killing children, semi-automatic rampages, loner serial killers etc... come from your country? Your worst getthos make French banlieues look like country clubs.
Your worst getthos make French banlieues look like country clubs.
Really? I live in DC, and not the Tony end of DC either (my local KFC is bulletproof) and while this area has its fare share of problems I must say I haven't read about multiple gang rapes, oh, ever. This isn't an individual atrocity here and there, there's no cherry picking of bad news. This problem in France is systematic and growing, one France has continued to turn a blind eye to. Bury your head in the sand if you want, but France is heading towards a demographic flash-point: the 'native' population is getting older and stagnating growth wise, and they're doing a piss-poor job of integrating their immigrants who are driving most of Frances population growth.
Your KFC is bulletproof ? I rest my case. Any link regarding gangrape in France being "systematic and growing"? It seems to me killing is rather "systematic" on your side of the pond, isn't it?
As far as integration, I beleive DC is one of the most racially polarized city in the US. No comparison with Paris.
Your KFC is bulletproof ? I rest my case.
Really, so you know the crime rates of the Shaw/Bloomingdale neighborhoods? Going up? Going down are they? The KFC is 20 years old, the neighborhood is improving (although there's still a lot of grit), but that's what gentrification of private property will do for you -- a concept foreign to the frogs, I'm sure.
Any link regarding gangrape in France being "systematic and growing"?
Uh, yeah, the original article I linked. I assume you didn't read it since this nugget was in the first paragraph:
Since 1999, rapes within the banlieue have increased by 15% to 20% every year.Or how about this one in paragraph three
Reports of sexual assaults against women have risen across France, with court convictions for rape having soared by 61% between 1995 to 2000.But then I'm sure the French police were just cherry picking those numbers as well....
As far as integration, I beleive DC is one of the most racially polarized city in the US. No comparison with Paris.
Proof you don't live here. My 'hood's so damn multi-culti it would make you're average tree-hugging, "up with people" cry with glee.
I'm not saying DC's any sort of paradise, but I've been to Paris, and I'd take DC any damn day of the week (and that's saying something, because DC can be a pretty boring place)
Allow me to be the devils advocate here.
FRP from your second post;
Bury your head in the sand if you want, but France is heading towards a demographic flash-point: the 'native' population is getting older and stagnating growth wise, and they're doing a piss-poor job of integrating their immigrants who are driving most of Frances population growth.
and from your third post;
Reports of sexual assaults against women have risen across France, with court convictions for rape having soared by 61% between 1995 to 2000.
This might lead one to the conclusion that French women have their legs perpetually crossed, leading French men to be more assertive.
yes, we're trying hard, but you're still better than us:
rapes per 1000 people: 0.30 in the USA, 0.14 in France
goldsoundz,
Considering those numbers are for 1998-2000, if "Since 1999, rapes within the banlieue have increased by 15% to 20% every year" is any indication of a national trend you may well have caught us.
FBR,
Are you implying Paris is more dangerous than DC? A few years ago, a friend of mine worked on a CNN documentary production called "A Tale Of Two Cities", comparing Paris and DC: quality of life, child care, crime, maintenance etc - I beleive it's available at CNN, see for yourself. There's just no comparaison. I know people in DC (I plan to visit soon). Great town I'm sure, but like many US cities, plagued by a sharp racial polarization (I've been to Detroit, LA, Chicago, I know what to expect), much, much more evident than in Paris.
Great town I'm sure, but like many US cities, plagued by a sharp racial polarization (I've been to Detroit, LA, Chicago, I know what to expect), much, much more evident than in Paris.
That's because Paris shipped all of their undesirables out to the banlieue.
I'm a white guy living in a predominatly black lower-middleclass neighboorhood (although it is in the early stages of gentrification) and have had no issues relating to race whatsoever. You're confusing race with economic status: there are a lot of poor folks in DC, and the majority of them are black. But for that you have the Crack addict ex-Mayor Barry (who himself is black) to thank for that. His policies -- typical liberal paternalistic welfare claptrap -- drove out both the black and white middle class from the district. This devistated the tax base, this fucked DC. The district is only now starting to recover.
DC has its problems (and there are a lot), but race isn't a major one, not from my experience.
Are you implying Paris is more dangerous than DC?
Well, let's take a look at what I said, shall we:
I'm not saying DC's any sort of paradise, but I've been to Paris, and I'd take DC any damn day of the week (and that's saying something, because DC can be a pretty boring place)
Seems like I'm simply saying I'd rather live in DC than Paris. But, hey, draw any conclusion you wish.
As for which city is more dangerous? Beat's me. I guess it depends on your criteria. There are good parts of DC and there are shit parts of DC; there are good parts of Paris and there are shit parts of Paris. As I mentioned in the post above, I live in a typical lower middle class neighborhood and I have no problem walking around at any time of the day (or night).
Totally anecdotal, but I've experience more problems from 3 days in Paris than I have in 6 years in DC. But that's just me.
"A Tale Of Two Cities", comparing Paris and DC: quality of life, child care, crime, maintenance etc - I beleive it's available at CNN, see for yourself.
Damned if I could find it.
(oh yeah, I before E, except after C)
Great town I'm sure, but like many US cities, plagued by a sharp racial polarization
Oh, almost forgot. I grew up in Europe (England and Italy) and have lived here in the states for 16 years (and try to make it back to Europe at least once a year) and I have to say that contrary to popular opinion Europe is much more racist than the US. Just for kicks go ask a French Algerian how well s/he feel accepted by French society at large.
FRB, I also live in DC. I also have had no problems here in last 12 years.
Perhaps, since zoomerx is such an EXPERT on DC, he could tell us what areas to avoid, and how we can end the "racial polarization" that he KNOWS is in DC.
I know lots of French Algerians and went to school in a predominently North African public school. I would say the majority are moderate and fairly well integrated in French society although their integration is fairly recent compared to African-Americans who have always been American . Racism is one issue, but in terms of "acceptence", I think Europe has always been a little more progressive than the US up until recently.
andy,
I'm no expert, but I watched the CNN documentary and I have had discussions on the subject. A Morrocan (ironically) friend of mine who works there tells me it is extremely polarized. You have never had a "problem" in DC for the simple fact that you do not go in "certain" areas, am I wrong? I have had the same experience in Detroit and LA, I don't think DC is that much different. I have never had a "problem" in Paris myself. The difference is that I can walk pretty much anywhere in the capital without looking over my shoulder.
Oh yes, and it's unlikely a Parisian, regardless his origins, carry a gun.
You have never had a "problem" in DC for the simple fact that you do not go in "certain" areas, am I wrong? I have had the same experience in Detroit and LA, I don't think DC is that much different. I have never had a "problem" in Paris myself.
I haven't ever found one, and I've been all over (including South East which has the bad rep). Yes, some places are rougher than others, but that's the same in EVERY city. As I mentioned in an earlier post the reason you may be able to walk around Paris is all of the slums have been shipped out to the 'burbs. Can you walk around any banlieue? Doubtful. So blight in the US tends to be inner cities; blight in France is in the suburbs. I say po-ta-toh you say Pah-ta-toh.
Oh yes, and it's unlikely a Parisian, regardless his origins, carry a gun
You do know DC has a gun ban, right? (Stellar research... "my friend made a documentary". I have the Discovery channel, so I guess that makes me a world class f**king expert on.. oh... everything)
You're right, there's a "ban" in DC. I wonder how DC's gun-related crime toll compares with Paris, FRB. I bet you a lollypop DC's way, way higher... By the way, I read once that the NBA Washington "Bullets" word was removed from the team's name... I wonder why. Too funny.
As far as walking in banlieues, sure, I would avoid certain places. But for now, I'm comparing DC and Paris. And I've never seen a "bulletproof" store anywhere in France, even in shitholes.
You're right, there's a "ban" in DC. I wonder how DC's gun-related crime toll compares with Paris, FRB.
Oh, much higher here I'm sure. Especially when you remove the banlieues from the equation (because we all know that there are no illegal guns there.... RIIIIIIIGHT).
By the way, I read once that the NBA Washington "Bullets" word was removed from the team's name.
Because on that issue Abe Poland was a pussy. I mean, simply changing that name had such an effect on crime.
But back to your main arguement....
But for now, I'm comparing DC and Paris.
Exactly. you're defining your area of comparison to look favorable. Lets look at suburban DC vs. suburban Paris (the banlieues you're apparently too chicken to walk though). I'll double or nothing your lollypop that for this comparison crime's much higher on your side of the pond. Not too many gang rapes going on in Reston or Vienna.
It's rather typical of you and others to point out other's problems while ignoring what's going on in your own backyard isn't it?. You make it sound as if Paris was surrounded by shitholes and lawless thugs gangraping everyone. So let's take national numbers and compare violent crime and other social ills between the US and the EU/Canada. Thank God we're not at your level yet.
It's rather typical of you and others to point out other's problems while ignoring what's going on in your own backyard isn't it?
Since when have I ignored any of DC's problems? Go back and reread my posts. I've admitted DC's got its problems (in fact I run a blog about its biggest problem the Country's shitties school system), I've just refuted your absurd claims about it (which all seem to come from you're friends documentry).
You make it sound as if Paris was surrounded by shitholes and lawless thugs gangraping everyone.
And you make the states sound like Apartide era South Africa with everyone packing heat.
So let's take national numbers and compare violent crime and other social ills between the US and the EU/Canada. Thank God we're not at your level yet.
Bring it on. Crime as a whole (including serious crime) has been steadily decreasing for over a decade. In fact, England and Wales have passed us as having the most violent crime per-capita (well done England and Wales... and done without guns too. How do you do it?) How are those French crime statistics looking? Going up? Going down?
Too bad you have to subscribe to get the full article, but the beginning makes the point quite well:
French Crime Rates Rise, Surpass Even United States
August 12, 2001This could be a Frenchman`s image of America: An armed bank robber escapes with two hostages after shooting three people dead. But it happened this weekend outside Paris. Statistics just released by the police confirm that the French have an image problem of their own: a big crime problem. Crime is already up 10 percent in the first six months of this year. Gang violence is spreading to the great boulevards of French cities. And a new crime survey shows France is now more violent than America. You`re telling me that the crime rate is higher in France than ...
And that was in 2001. Our rate's still dropping. How about France?
I'm sure you'll pooh-pooh this since it's from a Blog, but he's got the references listed so you can look the stats up yourself:
A German lawyer, in response to another blog entry (German Justice: 2 Days Per Murder), repeated the common European belief that the United States has a much higher crime rate than major European countries. The facts are quite different...Here are Interpol 2001 crime statistics (rate per 100,000):
* 4161 - US
* 7736 - Germany
* 6941 - France
* 9927 - England and WalesThus the US has a substantially lower crime rate than the major European countries!
Here are the Interpol 1995 crime statistics (rate per 100,000):
* 5278 - US
* 8179 - Germany
* 6316 - France
* 7206 - England & WalesHence the trend in the US is towards a lower crime rate, while the trend in Europe (except Germany) is towards an increasing crime rate.
On the Interpol website, you can read that Warning: These statistics cannot be used as a basis for comparison between different countries. They do not take into account:
national differences in the legal definitions of punishable acts
the diversity of statistical methods used
changes which may occur during the reference period affecting the data collected.
and if you read carefully the statistics in France and in the USA, you can understand that the American statistics do not take into acoount sexual aggressions while the French one do.
and with our well-known world-record rate of gangrapes, it makes a big difference.
so your comparison is wrong. sorry.
by the way, I found this comparison. I don't know if it can be trusted.
Goldsoundz:
That is a pretty neat site. But, as with all statistics, you can manipulate it to your liking. For instance, when it opens up, US is higher that France. But if you select Only European countries, and North American countries and Crime per GDP, then France has a higher Crime rate that US.
Depending on how you measure, the countries “flip-flop” on the list. Hey, maybe it was designed by John Kerry!
Zoomerx: Keep watching CNN, baby. Then you’ll be an EXPERT on everything! And actually, there are very few places in DC I do not walk in. DC has made a comeback, has turned around in last few years. Come visit and see for yourself.
Adam,
I live in Florida but I spend a lot of time in Vermont, about an hour outside of Montreal. I am the token conservative there. I have many Quebecois neighbors there. I have never met a French Canadian in person that I didn't like. But I can never get over your politics either.
Warning: These statistics cannot be used as a basis for comparison between different countries...
Thank you for pointing this out. This is true for all of the statistics you use to bash the US too. So, by your logic, the subject is off limits. By my logic, I think that our side scored some points in that skirmish.
And unless you can come up with a statistic for gang-rape, as opposed to rape, and that accounts for cultural reasons for not reporting it that are well known to exsist in the Musim community, you haven't said anything on the subject so far.
By my logic, I think that our side scored some points in that skirmish
FRB used statistics to prove his statement on a supposed higher crime rate in France than in the USA (that was the subject I was willing to answer), but he didn't read the statistics he used, otherwise he would have seen that sexual aggressions were not accounted in these american statistics. I was only answering to his post.
Where did I use statistics to bash the US?
FRB used statistics to prove his statement on a supposed higher crime rate in France than in the USA (that was the subject I was willing to answer), but he didn't read the statistics he used, otherwise he would have seen that sexual aggressions were not accounted in these american statistics. I was only answering to his post.
Considering the statistics were for overall crime and not just sexual crime I wonder how much of a swag it causes. But the point is correct, the statistics overall are not apples to apples (in fact, I know in the US they tend to overcount violent crime more than they do in Europe, which would actually make the European numbers look better than they are).
As a very coarse indicator, though, I think the numbers are good enough to show that the standard "Oh, the US is such a violent place" arguement by the likes of... oh, lets pull a name out of a hat... Zoomerx is bunk.
You, on the other side, have had a horrendous record with blacks leading by far in teenage pregnency, out-of-wedlock babies, drug-related crime, jail incarceration, illiteracy etc... 3 out of 5 black baby in the US does not have a father.
And that's racism? It's Whitey's oppression that makes all that happen, aye?
There is absolutely a social poison at work in black America, but at this point it isn't racism anymore. There are and always will be racist people (of every color), but no number of them can cause a 70% illegitimate birth rate. American black society today gets taken down from the inside.
There is absolutely a social poison at work in black America, but at this point it isn't racism anymore. There are and always will be racist people (of every color), but no number of them can cause a 70% illegitimate birth rate. American black society today gets taken down from the inside.
Don't forget it got a nice bit of help from the Welfare state (for providing such things as the projects, removing disincentives for bringing children into single parent families, etc).
But, having said that, when you do look at the stats (and DC reflects this). Things have been steadily improving in the black community now for decades, and are improving at a rate faster than the population as a whole.
Now, counter this with what is happening with France, their welfare state is much worse than ours, and the banlieues look remarkably like the projects of DC, Philly, Detroit, etc. of the 60s/70s. Its gonna get a lot worse for them.
FRB,
What "type" of crime are you refering to? Is violent crime included in Interpol's numbers? It seems to be that Americans tend to die more often than us poor Euros. Check out the DC statistics by the way.
http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.htlm
Check out the DC statistics by the way.
Wow.. tell me something I don't know. We were the murder capital of the US at one point. As I've said many a time before (and apparently I'll have to say a few times more) I've never claimed DC is paradise, it just ain't the picture you paint it to be.
What "type" of crime are you refering to? Is violent crime included in Interpol's numbers?
Indeed they appear to be.
Is violent crime included in Interpol's numbers? It seems to be that Americans tend to die more often than us poor Euros.
I take it by that you actually mean that Americans tend to die more often of violent crime than you poor Euros. Well, why don't you wonder over to that post and read a little further....
*******
However, the homicide rates have been dropping dramatically as we have been increasing penalties:
Homicide Rate/100,000 by Date in US:
1980 - 10.2
2000 - 5.5
Also, our murder rate is high largely due to the multicultural nature of our society. Inner city blacks, members of a distinct subculture, have a vastly higher criminal and victim homicide rate than our society as an average:
Homicide Offender Rate/100,000 by Race in US (2000):
3.4 - White
25.8 - Black
3.2 - Other
It is often hypothesized that blacks are overrepresented in murder statistics due to racism on the part of police and the justice system. If this were true, one would expect that the race of victims would have significantly different distribution than the race of the perpetrators, but this is not the case:
Homicide Victim Rate/100,000 by Race in US (2000):
3.3 - White
20.5 - Black
2.7 - Other
Thus if you remove homicides committed by blacks (total: 21862, Blacks:9316), and assume a proportionality between number of offenders and number of offenses, you can extrapolate US homicide offender rate of only 2.6/100,000, lower than Germany (3.27) and France (3.91).
********
So, as long as you're not a gang banger fighting over drug turf you've got about as good of a chance of being murdered as you do in france and germany. Still not great, but certainly not the war zone you imply.
I don't have the numbers but I would also assume that the bulk of the crime rate in France is also disproportionally represented in "problem" areas. Perhaps "gangbanging" makes up for a lack of firearms... On the other hand, the type of crime you have even in "respectable" suburban neighbourhoods such as school shootings, serial killers or the occasional disgrunteled office worker shooting his co-worker seems to be more of a (white) American phenomenon. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I'm saying it's more a regular staple of your news than ours.
But besides all that, there are many things about America I do enjoy...
Peace.
On the other hand, the type of crime you have even in "respectable" suburban neighbourhoods such as school shootings, serial killers or the occasional disgrunteled office worker shooting his co-worker seems to be more of a (white) American phenomenon. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I'm saying it's more a regular staple of your news than ours. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I'm saying it's more a regular staple of your news than ours.
You are exaggerating. They make the news simply because they are rather rare, when they happen they tend to make headlines. For example, after Columbine everyone here went into a tizzy about how bad school were getting with violence, but they were talking out of their ass since the statistics prove otherwise. You had a better chance of being a victim of school violence in the 70s than you do now. Again, crime in almost every category has been steadily dropping in this country for over a decade (in some categories even longer). Then trend in Europe is quite the opposite. And remember, armed robberies aren't just for Americans any more. For countries that are supposed to have such strict gun laws crimes with firearms are on the rise.
"Americans tend to die more often that Europeans"?
Wow. I thought everybody died once.
Why do 30 Frenchmen per 100,000 kill themselve vs 19 Americans per 100,000? Shouldn't this be included in your violent crimes statistics?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_sui_rat_mal
Guys. You can argue statistics all you want but let's not forget the most obvious point: The French are Anti-American; French culture is Anti-American; French Gov't is Anti-American (although they try to hide that fact).
France is one of the big enemies we have; working in secret to undermine our national security and putting our people in danger. They are not to be trusted, just like the North Koreans and the Chinese.
French culture is anti-American
well, let's see... I own a pair of Levi's, a pair of Nike, occasionally eat at McDonalds, occasionally take my nieces to Eurodisney, I like American movies, American music, American cars, used to live near near Boulevard Pershing, I often catch the subway at the Franklin Roosevelt station, sometimes I get stuck in traffic on Avenue du President Kennedy or Avenue de New York, or take a shortcut on Rue (Ben) Franklin to get to my sister's apartment who incidentally lives a stone-throw away from the George Washington monument, and I never, never insult American tourists who ask me for directions...
p.s. I heard Starbucks opened 3 stores in Paris!
Yes I'm just a typical Frenchman, "pro-freedom".
I could tell you weren't all that bad Zoomer ;)
Le Monde, in today's frontpage.
Nice example of French cultural "anti-Americanism", eh pro-freedom?
Funny.
Posting some article about some director who recently died is not going to dissuade me from what I know. And what I know is that Anti-Americanism is rampant across France and Europe. Sure, some will take certain things, give their own twist, and then explain how it's really "local", but then they'll turn around and say how it is us who are "uncultured" and "undeveloped". It's a common trick.
As for the names of streets and monuments, those are put there by local officials a long time ago and don't reflect what's going on today. For example: a local official at a small village may be a big Elvis fan and decided to put up a statue of him at the village square. That doesn't mean that the rest of the village folk are fans or even care about who he was. Same with other figures of history.
Naming streets and public monuments after foreign individuals only reflect the approval of the officials who voted on those names. The French are notorious for trusting a central government to manage their affairs. I wouldn't be surprised if, say by next week, those names are changed to something else. Such is the hostility towards us. Individual tourists being spat upon; Dark stares; Unfriendly airport staff (although that exists everywhere, so I won't emphasize that); Threats of physical harm; Boasts of cultural superiority on the part of locals; Expressions of support for terrorist actions against the U.S. - that is what awaits the U.S. traveller to Europe today. It's not the romantisized version shown in the movies and TV, but a new and dark age.
Perhaps it's a bit different in Britain but I won't go on a limb on that since there's a sizable % of the population who are that way as well.
As for American cars, unless you're talking Opel or those classic cars of the '50s and '60s, the European view on them is that they're worthless. One would have to come here to drive a Chevy or a Pontiac. Such is the snobbery of the Euros. But that's their choice, isn't it? I guess the old Atlantic alliance died well before I realized it. Maybe it wasn't even there in the first place, but a nice trick to make me think that there were such things as "allies". Maybe the UK is still an ally but for how much longer?
When I say that French culture is Anti-American, it's from understanding how French attitude towards the States developed over the centuries. It all started during the beginning, when leaders of the then-new nation thought that they had a friend, but the King of France sent ships to raid American merchant ships on the Atlantic. The leaders believed that the "assistance" during the Revolutionary War was genuine but that was merely a bunch of ships to bother the British to distract them from taming the colonies, and that's only to get back at the Brits for losing Canada. The King of France couldn't give a rat's ass about the rebels. However, the Founding Fathers thought they had a genuine ally and so they believed the spin of back then. Thus began the series of betrayals and doublecrosses the French committed on a trusting American government (and the people).
Kicking out NATO; weasling their way to a UN veto power; Refusing air passage for the retaliation against Libya for terrorist attacks (although that seems moot by now); Mitterand; Vichy; and now undermining the fight against terrorism on our part (and perhaps assisting in a terror plot against us, which would be the coup-de-grace).
In short, I don't have reasons to trust the French (and most Europeans) today.
You seem to be the typical American Euros loathe: I'm a 'Merkin, therefore everyone should do like I do and say as I say, we saved your asses blah blah blah.... People are different, pro-freedom, just because they don't bend over for you doesn't mean they're "anti-American". American streets and monuments in Paris have been there for decades, they will stay there. Who's being "spat upon"? Some cousin of you sister-in-law's neighbour who happened to have had a bad experience in France? That's bullshit. I know dozens of Americans who would tell you the exact opposite. Do you know how many Americans travel to France each year?
As far as the Revolution and French help, it's the typical bullshit from those who can't accept the fact that it is the French army, navy and money who made it possible. I don't think you know enough about it anyway. Cornwallis surrendered to the French who could have easily accept this honor. They did not and gave it to the Americans. Some "betrayal" eh? Fact is, it is the US who first backstabbed France by signing a peace treaty with england without France's representation. And you know what? Franklin had the balls to ask France for more money, which France did. Yeah... some "betrayal". Read your History.
Kicking out NATO
That was De Gaulle's problem. De Gaulle supported Kennedy 100% during the Cuban crisis, btw. Hey, France has not cost you a cent, don't complain.
weasling their way to a UN veto power
At the insistance of Churchill. Bring on India or Japan, why not?
Refusing air passage for the retaliation against Libya for terrorist attacks (although that seems moot by now
The real story is that France was OK with that but asked for early warning, a simple formality. The US refused. No deal. Spain also refused btw. But I'll give you that one.
Mitterand
Mitterand? Absolutely not "anti-American". He's the one who hiresd an American to renovate the Louvre, btw.
Vichy
Fuck Vichy.
and now undermining the fight against terrorism on our part
Another load of un-informed bullshit, as if France never had to deal with islamic terrorism before.
(and perhaps assisting in a terror plot against us, which would be the coup-de-grace)
Yeah, "perharps". How old are you, twelve?
In short, I don't have reasons to trust the French (and most Europeans) today
Umfortunately, you need them and they need you.
Umfortunately, you need them and they need you.
I've thought about this a bit, and I'm curious - what exactly would you say we need them for? What would you say they need us for?
Umfortunately, you need them and they need you.
I've thought about this a bit, and I'm curious - what exactly would you say we need them for? What would you say they need us for?
In the long run we won't need Europe, at least "old Europe." Maybe England (keeping my fingers crossed) will stay relevant, but Europe in 50-100 years will be like Greece now: a nice place to go to look at castles and learn a bit of history, but nothing really of consequence. Between Europe's plummeting birthrate, social policy that, in the short term, is a major drag on their economy (how's that 10% unemployment rate in france going) and in the long term is outright unsustainable W. Europe is fading away. I see the European Union (which will fail) as the last gasp European relevance.
Get used to it Europe, you're the old, fading ex-starlet who's being replaced by the likes of India and China, and you have no-one to blame but yourselves.
China and India are huge countries, FRB. Whether their gap between the super-wealthy and the abject poverty will diminish remains to be seen...
You've been around for how long... 250 years? You're wrong to underestimate the European Union Once they can get their shit together, we will see.
Anyway, what does "relevance" mean?
And not every Americans see like you, FRB. What goes up must fall down, as they say... We've seen it before. But I'm not as "doomy" as you are.
Anyway, what does "relevance" mean?
Relevance means that you matter, that what you say or think has some importance, or even that your application of principle and reason will be beneficial to some process. It also means that when you espouse a principled conviction you will back it up, or even that you have the weight to back it if you choose to. Does France dare act without approval from Paraguay and Bangladesh? I'll go out on a limb and say yes, because they're usually not relevant.
What goes up must fall down, as they say... We've seen it before.
It sounds like you're consoling yourself. This statement assumes gravity. Is there gravity? Europe was "up" for 1,500 years or so, and didn't come down until it beat the living crap out of itself. Even that probably wouldn't have done it if it hadn't found itself flanked by the superpowers its own conflicts created. Now you hear from America what America formerly heard from you - and you don't like it. My heart bleeds.
Your point? "We're number One"? OK, you're number one... I think the world accepts that, generally speaking.
My point isn't "we're number one" - it's "you're no longer number one, I have no sympathy, get over it".
I didn't really think that was worth discussing though, which is why my question was "Is there gravity?", and I provided a little support for the idea that there might not be. Since you don't seem to have an answer, I guess you really were consoling yourself.
you're no longer number one
Oh really? Really, what is your point? I don't think having the fourth-fifth economy for more than a century is bad at all. If a fairly stable world economy, democratic society is "irrelevant" to you, you are sadly mistaken or simply naive.
Jesus Zoomerex, you have the comprehension skills of a doorknob.
Oh really? Really, what is your point? I don't think having the fourth-fifth economy for more than a century is bad at all. If a fairly stable world economy, democratic society is "irrelevant" to you, you are sadly mistaken or simply naive.
We're talking about the future of France, not its past (hence the Greece comparison. You know, "used to be great".) Considering you have an enemic economy (which had crap growth even during the salad days of the 90s), permanent 10% unemployment, expensive entitlement programs and you fuckers aren't breeding worth a shit I think its save to say baring major change Western Europe will continue its slide into irrelevance.
And remember, during the last 50 years we've beaten the crap out of W. Europe economically even while paying almost all of the cost to defend it. Imagine what will happen when you actually have to pay for an army that's worth a shit.
China and India are huge countries, FRB.
Stunning bit of analysis that. Please change your name to "Cap't Obvious."
Whether their gap between the super-wealthy and the abject poverty will diminish remains to be seen...
No it doesn't. Go look at the economic histories of both countries. They've been on the uptick for a while.
Oh really? Really, what is your point? I don't think having the fourth-fifth economy for more than a century is bad at all. If a fairly stable world economy, democratic society is "irrelevant" to you, you are sadly mistaken or simply naive.
I thought I already explained my point, but since you ask yet again maybe I didn't do it so well. I also thought I said I was finished with it, but I'll try again anyway.
Europe, and certainly France, once was on top. Not for a few years or decades, but for over a millenium. Until perhaps the late 19th century/early 20th, America wasn't really a powerful country, and was certainly dwarfed by such as the French empire. Back then, we tried for over 100 years to stress international organizations and multilateralism when dealing with Europe. In fact, everything that Europe whines about today we whined about over a century ago - and Europe's answer was "Too bad, it's raison d'etat you know".
Then, Europe finally nobbled itself hardcore. When the dust settled, it found itself between a highly militarized Soviet Union and an industrially swelled United States. It was no longer the big fish in the pond, and had to adjust to trying not to get squished between the two rather than squishing them at will. The states of Europe came to understand things in the way that little fish always have, and some are still today arrogant enough to think Europe invented this thinking. Europe and France are weak today, and seem to have every intention of staying that way. Fine by me. The irony of the whining amuses me when it doesn't annoy me.
Now - you assert that what goes up must come down, as though dominance must, by some natural force, be of a limited nature. What I'm asking you about isn't who is what number, it's that force - do you actually have some insight into such a force, or was that wistful comment just wishful thinking? Because when I look at how Europe came down, I don't think I neccessarily see a natural force at work. When I look at how dominance was lost a handful of times in the past, it seems it was usually due to causes that have since been overcome. Now - do you have something to offer for consideration, or just more petulant postulation?
As for relevance - no amount of stability, prosperity, or democracy makes one relevant if they lack the will or the means to participate in any meaningful way. I think Switzerland has a longer tradition of stability and higher standard of prosperity, but is less relevant than France.
FRB - I know India's been developing well, but China? Isn't the reason for the child birth inhibitions that population growth has been outstripping economic growth for years?
FRB - I know India's been developing well, but China? Isn't the reason for the child birth inhibitions that population growth has been outstripping economic growth for years?
According to the data at the University of Michigan China's labour force grew from 595 million in 1992 to 696 million in 1997 (a 17% raise), during which the GPD increased from $406B to $901B (a 121% raise). Granted this isn't distributed across the country; the inland regions of China are miles behind the coastal regions, but China is a young county with respect to modern economics and industry. Ever since the economy was liberalized in the 80s things have been getting much better. There's a great website I'll have to find that shows the movement of countries population vs. GDP over time (among other things)
Because when I look at how Europe came down, I don't think I neccessarily see a natural force at work.
Can you elaborate?
The only continent that shares your values in almost every way, Doug, is Europe, think about it. I see it as vital for both of us. You're wrong to dismiss that.
The only continent that shares your values in almost every way, Doug, is Europe, think about it. I see it as vital for both of us. You're wrong to dismiss that.
**COUGH COUGH** Australia
Apparently they can't teach geography in France either.
Oooo! Big point for you here, FBR. Here's lollipop.
The subject is "Europe", btw.
The subject is "Europe", btw.
Yes, I'm quite aware of that, but lets go re-read your parent post:
The only continent that shares your values in almost every way, Doug, is Europe, think about it. I see it as vital for both of us. You're wrong to dismiss that.
Notice how you said it was the only continent, implying that the data set from which "only" applied included all 7. I mean, if we're only talking about Europe that is a completely pointless observation.
Australia is an island and a State. The continent is Oceania.
it's pointless I admit it.
According to the data at the University of Michigan China's labour force grew from 595 million in 1992 to 696 million in 1997 (a 17% raise), during which the GPD increased from $406B to $901B (a 121% raise).
I stand corrected! Thanks.
Can you elaborate?
The only continent that shares your values in almost every way, Doug, is Europe, think about it. I see it as vital for both of us. You're wrong to dismiss that.
I think that "almost every way" is a bit of a stretch these days, though on the whole I agree we have more in common with each other than with Africa or Asia. However, it has to be noted that the gap between our values has been growing for at least the last 50 years, and I don't think there's much question that this has growth has accellerated dramatically in the last 10 years or so.
As for elaborating - I'm not sure how much I can do without writing another novella. In a nutshell, Europe's dominance came to an end with WWII.
Europe is not economically or politically irrelevant, but doesn't have - or even seem to want - the power it once had. I just don't think that the end of Europe's dominance came about by any natural or unavoidable process (as the phrase "what goes up must come down" would suggest). I think that even from the ruins of WWII, Europe could have regained (or retained perhaps) its power - in fact, probably would have if not for the United States. I think that this would have been the natural course of action to take place, but there were external forces that altered Europe's will to follow that course.
I say this because I also think that organizations (example, governments) tend to follow the rules of natural organisms - for instance, that they follow survival strategies which play to their strengths. Prior to WWII, Europe's strength was pure power; after WWII, there were two more powerful players in the game, and Europe's own war had built them. Strategies that relied on power therefore were no longer neccessarily the best course for Europe. I think that the decline of Europe's might would have been a momentary blip on the timeline, it could have returned to power strategies, if not for the choices made by the US and Europe in the wake of WWII. Before, during, and perhaps even after the war I think that the loss of Europe's position could have been avoided.
Apparently they can't teach geography in France either.
I often wonder about that - I've observed that when Europeans use the word "world", they're usually referring to the area between the Ural mountains and the Atlantic ocean. What's in those books, anyway?
