Well, you can take Dom out of the colonial service (scil., Foreign Ministry), but you can't take the colonialist out of Dom.

The French interior minister, Dominique de Villepin, said yesterday that the country must urgently begin training Muslim clerics in a moderate Islam that respects human rights and the republican code. ...he said France had to "face the issue of training imams. I ask you to help the Muslim faith get organised better and more quickly so that a real 'French Islam' can emerge."

Dom looks to have the French state back in the religion business again, this time manufacturing nice French Muslims.

Whatever happened to the much bruited laïcité, the vaunted "French secular tradition"? In a nation boasting some 1,500 years of history, during most of which the French state sought to regularize religion, the "French secular tradition", dating back no further than 1905, is pretty small beer.

The problem of radical Islamic clerics preaching a message contrary to French law and values is a pressing one: government figures show 27 Muslim prayer leaders have been deported on public order or human rights grounds since 2001 - more than half of them since last July.

France clearly has a problem. But while French imams incite congregations to celebrate the Madrid bombings, instruct husbands in the proper beating of wives, while tournantes are institutionalized as a cultural recreation in the banlieues, how has the French state responded? With this.

I've detailed elsewhere my opinion of Jack's hijab ban, vid., seventh comment , third comment, first comment. Not surprisingly, the French themselves are confused by their hash:

A document on implementing the law, made public Wednesday by the Education Ministry, is so imprecise that one leading French daily, Le Figaro, wrote that bandanas would be forbidden while another, Le Monde, said that bandanas might be acceptable.

...the document leaves a small loophole. It states that signs and apparel with no religious significance "even if they can be worn in certain cases for religious motives" are not forbidden — unless they are worn "in conditions that would make them a conspicuous sign of religious affiliation."

Huh?

The document appears to exempt students in overseas French territories, like the Indian Ocean island of Reunion, where head coverings are customary.

It was not clear whether turbans worn by students from France's tiny Sikh community, not mentioned in the document, would be affected.

The text opens the doors to court cases, [Philippe Guittet, a union leader for school principals], told Le Monde. "It distinguishes between religious apparel, which is forbidden, and traditional apparel, which is acceptable. But how do you tell the difference?"

What is more confusing is the political calculation behind this law. After pimping Dom out to the Arab world to curry French influence, Jack suddenly decides to bully Muslim schoolgirls. Of course Muslim schoolgirls aren't the problem, but the ban has given a respectable rally point to the very Islamofascists Jack needs to beat down -- a desperate task for which he lacks the courage.

Holy crap batman

I can't wait to hear from "the usual suspects" how great life in france will be under Sharia Law.

4...
3...
2...
1...

If you can't beat 'em, regulate 'em.

Gee, you would think the photos from the Bagdhad prison would have brough out the trolls tonight. Hhanging is too good for these guys. They fell victim to the kind of hate that bin Laden sought to create. That doesn't excuse them.

Why don't you let France worry about a piece of cloth and mind your own problems !

Zoomer,
Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Just curious. My daughter is in high school here, I don't recognize anything in the story as relating to her life. Of course, she is not a pussilanious Frenchman, worried for her safety about every minimal threat, no matter how remote.

The date on Zoomerx's post: Tuesday August 17, 1999. Come on man, can't you do any better than that? Almost 5 years old. Get back to google and search away, my friend....

Anybody besides me cheering for Imperialism in the Kentucky Derby today?

Love that name……

From what I understand from a friend raised Christian Lebanese, the particular head covering in question was invented (~1972)to provide "gang colors" to Shia Muslim women to better allow the Shia males to rape and kill all non-Shia women.
If the French Government actually knows their history, I can readily see the refusal to "go down that road".

Jhn1,

I have GOT to hear more about that one.
What do you know?

May be Damian this new is today outdated about
...the document leaves a small loophole. It states that signs and apparel with no religious significance "even if they can be worn in certain cases for religious motives" are not forbidden — unless they are worn "in conditions that would make them a conspicuous sign of religious affiliation."

Damian's comment (Huh?) was shared by load of us down here ;)

Then the text got this modification.

"The law does not allow to use religion as excuse to refuse to take out a head cover when the INTERNAL RULE in the school asks to do so."

This is more than a clever word handling. It allow the teachers and school managers to use what they have of common sense to allow or not this or other piece of clothe.

I enjoyed de-programmer's comment

Gee, you would think the photos from the Bagdhad prison would have brough out the trolls tonight. Hhanging is too good for these guys. They fell victim to the kind of hate that bin Laden sought to create. That doesn't excuse them.

Obviously, you don't evaluate people by what THEY do but by what YOU WOULD THINK they would have done... What is the purpose ?

Just a remark about this new layout :
Very clean and simple, good job, but... would be nice to see the date of each areticle rather than having to guess with the date of ealiest comment.

A+

Obviously, you don't evaluate people by what THEY do but by what YOU WOULD THINK they would have done

I can't see how you could possibly draw that conclusion.

I expected this site to be overrun with references to the photos, since it seems to be the standard defence against the Oil for Food scandal elsewhere on the 'net. Since it wasn't, I have had to revise my thinking regarding the polliwog posters. My original premise produced an incorrect prediction. That is how thinking people look at the world. They observe, draw conclusions, test those conclusions through further observation, and then refine them.

Europeans, on the other hand, despite all evidence to the contrary, wake up every day believing that Bush is an idiot, America is evil, and the war was about Oil.

They also think that Marx's predictions happened.

This is more than a clever word handling. It allow the teachers and school managers to use what they have of common sense to allow or not this or other piece of clothe.

By codifying a right to subjective discrimination.

I have GOT to hear more about that one.
What do you know?

From this article, you can directly thank Saint Arafat for this:

In an interview in 1975 in Beirut, Sadr told this writer that the hijab he had invented was inspired by the headgear of Lebanese Catholic nuns, itself inspired by that of Christian women in classical Western paintings. (A casual visit to the National Gallery in London, the Metropolitan Museum in New York, or the Louvres in Paris, would reveal the original of the neo-Islamist hijab in numerous paintings depicting Virgin Mary and other female figures from the Old and New Testament.)

Sadr's idea was that, by wearing the headgear, Shiite women would be clearly marked out, and thus spared sexual harassment, and rape, by Yasser Arafat's Palestinian gunmen who at the time controlled southern Lebanon.

I don't know if this Sadr is the same one whose son has recently caused such a ruckus in Iraq, but given his prominence I don't think it's a bad guess.

Dom looks to have the French state back in the religion business again, this time manufacturing nice French Muslims.

This is just a symptom of the true difference between France and the US. France likes top-down control, be it in politics, culture or economics there is some gov't/standards body telling you just how you should be "French." They have language police, rules about French content in movies, music, TV, etc, and for all of their vaunted Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité the French political power structure is top heavy. What we would consider the "federal" part of gov't holds almost all of the power, leaving the localities with precious little.

In the US we tend to allow things like culture, politics and language to grow organically from the bottom up.

Frankly, I think the bottoms up approach yields a much more robust and resilient culture.

FRB's neanderthal view of Europe...

There is no "language police" in France, english words are used everyday, everywhere, especially computer-related terms.

On the other hand, we don't knee-jerk at the slightest "moral" offence like you do, FRB. The Janet Jackson controversy is nothing new. You glorify and sanitize violence while you run and hide at the sight of a boob...You're so easily offended. We have satirical programmes in France and the UK that wouldn't pass your "moral" police.

Ut seems difficult, de-programmer, to mix the oil for food and prisonner abuse.

I expected this site to be overrun with references to the photos, since it seems to be the standard defence against the Oil for Food scandal elsewhere on the 'net.

But OK, if you wish a comment about these abuses, I can do that for you:

Such "events" are part of ALL WAR. especially when this war is in occupation phase. It would be pointless (especially from a French who know what we did in Algerie) to blame America as whole nation about it.

I just hope that these facts can "wake up" those who still dream about "clean moral war". This is not a new dream, at start of WW 1, the emperor of austria predicted it would be a "short, fresh and happy war"...

A war is just using all destruction means available to defeat the opponent. Torture and abuse are ammong these means and are used from all sides in all wars. Not simply isolated facts from an "handful of bastard" : If a soldier can get some clues prisonners which may simply save some compatriots lives, he will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING he can to get these clues, whatever is the flag sewed on his right shoulder.

Like death and wounds, torure and abuse are PERMANENT components of war.

This is why you hear again and again that "war is the last thing to do". Something to decide only when soon or late the war will start anyway.

Europeans, on the other hand, despite all evidence to the contrary, wake up every day believing that Bush is an idiot, America is evil, and the war was about Oil.

I have too many things to think about when I wake up to waste time with "America is evil" or any other mindless hatred like that.
All the evidences (??...) that this war wan not about oil are like the WMD : they remain to be found.

About Bush beeing an idiot... Hum... how to tell? I hreared him telling "how disgusted he was" about this prisoner abuse. Did he forgot that HE DECIDED to start the war a while ago ? Is he dumb enough to imagine he can invade a country without trigering hatred, torture and abuse ?
Or simply, is he deeply hypocrite and dishonest? (much mor usual in polytic world than stupidity)

There is no "language police" in France, english words are used everyday, everywhere, especially computer-related terms.

Oh?

Goodbye “e-mail,” the French government says, and hello “courriel” — the term that linguistically sensitive France is now using to refer to electronic mail in official documents.

The Culture Ministry has announced a ban on the use of “e-mail” in all government ministries, documents, publications or Web sites, the latest step to stem an incursion of English words into the French lexicon.

And no one I know is hiding from boobs. We just have this thing about guys ripping women's clothes off during prime-time family programming. Yes, we actually find that offensive, though perhaps the French are culturally desensitized to this sort of thing - indeed, some seem to revel in it.

"Did he forgot that HE DECIDED to start the war a while ago ? Is he dumb enough to imagine he can invade a country without trigering hatred, torture and abuse ?"

Wow, an actual thought. Yes, he is that dumb. According to you it would be better for the rape rooms, torture chambers, and mass killings to continue than for a Muslim to be sexually humiliated. Come on, they are so terrified of women that they remove their clitorises. I guess they figure that Allah made a mistake putting them there. I am sure that what they wanted to do was spread some pork fat on some and shoot them, and then question the rest.

The US was infected by the hatred that bin Laden sought to create. That was a victory for their side. The difference between us and France is that the story came out of a US investigation first. Stuff happens in war. Even the Iraqis are saying, 'come on, we know worse is going on'. They are unimpressed with our feeble attempts at torture.

“The word 'courriel' is not at all actively used,” Marie-Christine Levet, president of French Internet service provider Club Internet, said Friday. “E-mail has sunk in to our values.”

You just made my point... No one has gone to jail yet ;-)

I expected this site to be overrun with references to the photos, since it seems to be the standard defence against the Oil for Food scandal elsewhere on the 'net.

What's interesting is that before the Irak invasion, the US State Department invited top military official at a screen of the movie "The Battle Of Algiers". There are some eerie similarities.... apparently they did not learn anything from it.

And the evidence that is coming out is showing very clearly that France's support of Saddam, and their risible demand that the country be handed back to the Iraqis months ago were about bribes, huge bribes.

It seemed to me at the time that the reason the French wanted somebody new in their was so that they could corrupt them immediately and get their hands on those documents before they came out. Now the facts seem to show this. Where is your evidence that the US fought the war for oil?

It also seems that some of these funds went to Al Qaeda front organizations. That is enough justification for the war for me right their. That is the connection of France to terrorism. France did not want the terror, I am not saying that, but it was willing to look the other way as long as the money kept coming. This is becoming more clear each day.

One other thing. When you measure the cost of war, you have to weigh the costs of lives lost and atrocities commited against the lost lives and atrocities that are prevented by fighting the war. On this balance sheet, my concience is clear, as is that of Bush, I am sure.

The US was infected by the hatred that bin Laden sought to create.

No drive-by, the US are human like the rest of us, despite often claiming they have higher moral standards... What a public-relation disaster...

Zoomer,
The whole Arab way of war is to force Christians to fight dirty, become disgusted, and give up. That is how they defeated you in Algiers. That is what the terrorism is about. It is what we must guard against. In Fallujah especially. If we handle that situation correctly, we will inevitably win, if we fail, we will lose.

One problem with their asymetrical warfare is that it cannot be used to defeat a stronger power if that power feels too much is at stake. For instance, France knew she had no moral right to stay in Algiers. This method caused her to leave. But Isreal is not going to march to her death in the sea voluntarilly. Once the terrorists cross a certain threshold, as they have in Isreal. A nation's concern for survival outweigh her concerns for what other countries think about her.

The terrorists have approached that threshold on 9-11, one more such attack and they will have crossed it. Only our civilized restraint keeps us from destroying them completely. They abuse it anyway, because it has always worked in the past when fighting the west. This is what has to change on our side. You guys have already surrendered.

"despite often claiming they have higher moral standards."

Oil for Food.

Only our civilized restraint keeps us from destroying them completely

Destroying who and where? Are Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on your "to do" list?

You guys have already surrendered.

That's a big leap. France has been rounding up and arresting Islamic suspects for decades. True, France has not experienced a 9/11 catastrophe.

Oil for Food.

of torture.

Actual proof of Torture.

And no one I know is hiding from boobs. We just have this thing about guys ripping women's clothes off during prime-time family programming. Yes, we actually find that offensive, though perhaps the French are culturally desensitized to this sort of thing - indeed, some seem to revel in it.

No Doug, you have a culture that constently pushes the envelope in sex and violence (often very creatively - this is not a criticism) but easily knee-jerks on "moral grounds" when it is exposed at the wrong time. It's nothing new - from banning Elvis' hip moves in the 50's to Robert Mappletorpe's S&M photos, now Janet Jackson (I'll grant you, it wasn't good taste. What shocks me were the aftermath and the almost childish public reaction...). We in Europe do not have that Religious clout hanging.

The US was infected by the hatred that bin Laden sought to create.

seriously, how old are you?

"seriously, how old are you?"

I am not French. I think differently than you. What is your argument? This has always been a risk in this war. It is one of the first things that Bush did after 9-11, to appear with Muslims and to clearly state that this is not a war with Islam. It is impossible not to hate these creeps however. It is possible not to become them, no matter how hard they try to force it on you. Look at Guantanamo, lots of accusations based on beliefs about human nature, no evidence of abuse, even though prisoners have been freed. It is possible to run a prison properly. The guy who ran Guantanamo is on his way to take over this prison. It will be run correctly. I never said that shit doesn't happen in wartime, just that it plays into the enemies hands and so should be controlled as far as humanly possible.

And which scandal caused more human suffering? The oil for food program, where Iraqis were left to suffer under sanctions to line the pockets of the connected French? Or a few intractable prisoners who were humiliated sexually? Neither excuses the other, so we may as well talk about the larger evil. Oil for Food is the evil that flows from the French attitude that all men are weak and evil, so we may as well make the most money out of it that we can.

What you seem to be missing Zoomerex is that the whole Janet Jackson debacle here in the US is a good example of the bottom up nature of our culture. Some pols pitched a fit, a few holy-rollers got pissed, but by far the biggest news has been the backlash against the "censorers." We have a healthy distaste for the gov't telling us what we can or cannot hear.

Now, answer me this, how often does Frenchie march in protest of French protectionist policies around culture (cinema subsidies, "french content" laws, "don't use english words" pronouncements)? And its not like you French don't love to protest.

FRB has you there. It is nothing like a majority behind the boob bruhaha.

There are no protests for the simple fact no one gives a damn about it. Also being French, no one will enforce these "laws" anyway.

Again, I would look at your own backyard: the controversy over non-french words is not a lot different from a lot of American groups insisting on English first" (My Spanish came handy last year when in L.A.). It may be silly but it's a legitimate concern.

FRB has you there. It is nothing like a majority behind the boob bruhaha.

The controversy was huge, de-programmer, I read the news. It would have barely raised an eyebrow in Europe, we're a bit more mature about these things.

Again, I would look at your own backyard: the controversy over non-french words is not a lot different from a lot of American groups insisting on English first" (My Spanish came handy last year when in L.A.). It may be silly but it's a legitimate concern.

Nice dodge, but you're comparing apples to oranges. We're not talking about which language should be offically used by gov't (in France would I have the right to have my public education, a trial, my passport forms, etc. all done in English? I think not), but trying to control how a language develops. Beyond fuddy duddy english professors who lament how "young people speak" we don't anyone telling us to change the words escargots to "smelly snails that smelly french people eat." Granted, we did have a exactly one short lived bout of "freedom fries" in the House cafeteria, but that's what happens when you

a) actually let politicians use their very small brains and
b) well, we're making fun of the french. What's not to love

The controversy was huge, de-programmer, I read the news. It would have barely raised an eyebrow in Europe, we're a bit more mature about these things.

Yes, in France boobs are very passe. If you really want to start a controversy beat your girlfriend to death. That just *may* cause a bit of a stir.

On the other hand lets take a look at your record on selling Nazi crap on e-bay or your lovely "hate speech" laws. Way to chill free expression there. Also, interesting to note that I haven't seen any Anti-semetic retards brought up on charges yet, but you say something about the "RoP" and the French gov't will try to nail your balls to the wall.

So lets review:

According to Zoomerex the US is a backwards shithole because a few people got their knickers in a twist over a boob. This is bad.

France, on the other hand, will try to send your ass to prison if you say something the gov't doesn't actually like. This is good.

Viva La France!

Yes, in France boobs are very passe. If you really want to start a controversy beat your girlfriend to death. That just *may* cause a bit of a stir.

Yes, big story. You see, here these things are rather unusual . Speaking of abuse against the defenceless, nice job in Irak. What happened to your ahem... Godly values?

The ebay ban on Nazi propaganda. Kind of silly, I agree. But this is just an extention of a more serious ban on "visible" types of Nazi references, as it exists in Germany, but it's nice to know that these morons can find a voice in the Land Of The Free. How touching, really. For you it may be silly, for us it's not a joke.

France, on the other hand, will try to send your ass to prison if you say something the gov't doesn't actually like.

Really? Link? See, this is the kind of declaration that makes you really, really silly, FRB.

Ironic how the US just surpassed Russia as the world leader in jail incarceration, btw.

Viva La France!

It's " Vive La France "

Yes, big story. You see, here these things are rather unusual . Speaking of abuse against the defenceless, nice job in Irak. What happened to your ahem... Godly values?

Beats me, I'm an athiest. And those idiots will get punishment, more than that tosspot rockstar will, you can be sure.

The ebay ban on Nazi propaganda. Kind of silly, I agree. But this is just an extention of a more serious ban on "visible" types of Nazi references, as it exists in Germany, but it's nice to know that these morons can find a voice in the Land Of The Free. How touching, really. For you it may be silly, for us it's not a joke.

You see, that's the point. We allow all people to express their opinion, no matter how "silly" (or downright dangerous) they may be. Its called freedom of expression. If you don't have or (and vigorously enforce it) then your asshat politicians / lawyers can use it to silence speech they don't like. Say something that "humiliates" Islamists and prepare to spend time in court defending yourself. This goes back to the whole "top down" vs "bottoms up" control. We don't need a gov't to protect us from Nazism, we're quite adept at doing it ourselves. Some jackass wants to prattle on we have the ability to prattle right back at him.

Really? Link? See, this is the kind of declaration that makes you really, really silly, FRB.

Uh, oh, I don't know... maybe the one I posted in the previous thread? You know... This One

Houellebecq, who won the Impac literary prize in May, could have faced up to 18 months in jail or a 70,000 euro (£44,000) fine if found guilty.

Ironic how the US just surpassed Russia as the world leader in jail incarceration, btw.

Ironic
Variant(s): or iron·i·cal /-ni-k&l/
Function: adjective
1 : relating to, containing, or constituting irony
2 : given to irony

Irony
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -nies
Etymology: Latin ironia, from Greek eirOnia, from eirOn dissembler
1 : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning -- called also Socratic irony
2 a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c : an ironic expression or utterance
3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play -- called also dramatic irony, tragic irony
synonym see WIT

So how exactly is the US incarciration rate ironic?

Are you really Alanis Morissette?

I have a brother, who is 18 months younger then me. When we were growing up, I locked him in the closet, and told him there were poisonous spiders in there with him, just to terrorize him. Also on a few occasions, when he had just got out of the bath, I would steal his towel, push him out the front door, and lock him out.

It was good for a laugh. I'm not proud of it, I'm just illustraiting a point. The point is, what I did to my little brother was no less severe then the "torture" our Iraqi prisoners were subject to.

You know what?

Me and my brother still go to basketball games together. We still exchange Xmas gifts. He still invites me over to BBQ.

Ed did shave my German Sheppard once. Gave Max a mohawk. In short he gave some back too, don't worry.

Sad that France ran out of room for it's criminals when it started convicting them. Perhaps you too could keep more criminals off the streets if you had someplace to put them. If you get more use out of your Patriot Act than we have out of ours, I guess suicide rates can only climb.

France's prisons are bursting, with inmate populations exceeding official capacity by 25 percent. Overcrowding is acute in such large cities as Lyon, where jail-occupancy rates are a whopping 240 percent. Civil libertarians have grown strident. Many claim that the alleged declines in crime are exaggerated and that the government is playing with statistics to burnish its image.

When we were growing up, I locked him in the closet, and told him there were poisonous spiders in there with him, just to terrorize him.

That's fantastic. I have brothers that are four and six years younger - I can relate. I once put a blinking light in their closet with a thin sheet over it. When they saw the flashing through the louvered door, I told them I had trapped a demon in there and I'd let it out if they told anybody. They had a lot of trouble sleeping until the batteries died.

They both had an annoying penchant for running around the house naked - one minute they'd run by in clothes, and the next they were in the raw. This was embarassing when friends stopped by, so I took a camera without film and pretended to take about a dozen pictures of the little naked monsters. Then I threatened to show them to their friends. I blackmailed them for years with pictures that never existed, but at least I kept them wearing clothes when friends were over.

I think I also scarred them for life.

We don't need a gov't to protect us from Nazism, we're quite adept at doing it ourselves. Some jackass wants to prattle on we have the ability to prattle right back at him.

Banning Nazi propaganda in France and Germany is not as far removed as a ban proposal on burning the US flag. It touches a raw nerve for many. The Nazi party ban in Germany and France has nothing to do with Freedom of speech per se. It is about self-sensorship because of the terrible suffering the Nazis caused on millions. Americans practice self-censorship all the time, it has nothing to do with freedom of speech, but how far we can set the limits of decency, in our case we think the Nazi party has no room in our society, you do, well that's your right. We are far more lenient about certain things than you are, and vice-versa, we have our own reasons, you have your own. Your indignance about how we feel towards "Freedom of Expression" vs. Nazism once again shows you narrow-minded vision as if France lived in a 1960's-style Soviet Union style. By the way, if I want to buy a Nazi belt-buckle, I can easily get one at a flea market...

"The controversy was huge, de-programmer, I read the news."

What news exactly? I live here, it was not as 'huge' as Condi Rice proving that Richard Clarke was a liar in live questioning, that's for sure. If that was 'huge', what adjective do you reserve for things like Major Hurricanes that kill dozens and do billions of dollars worth of damage? What adjective do you reserve for a football hero like OJ turning out to be a murderer? Not with a gun, BTW.

What is the next step up from 'huge'? 9-11?, what word do you reserve for that? 9-11 was way smaller than the wars you guys started over there in the past century. What word do you use for those?

The controversy goes on because of infringment of free speech, which we take very seriously here.

It was only 'huge' in the French news, because it allowed you to poke fun at Americans. I would be willing to bet that there has been far more news about the backlash against the FCC than their ever was about outrage over JJ's bare tit.

"Nice job in Irak. What happened to your ahem... Godly values?"

Does it feel any different to you to taunt us for something we actually did than how it usually feels? I didn't think so.

Good for you, you got us on one, minor though it is. I am more upset over the prisoners that were beaten to death in Afghanistan a couple years back myself.

Doug,

I happen to have an American friend, an architect who specializes in federal prisons. Business is booming.

We have our problems, you have yours ...

Which do you think is worse by the way? Our exploitation of their deep fear of female sexuality, or their exploitation of our reluctance to kill women and childred?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,9461207%5E28737,00.html

Zoomer,
Would you ever consider the possiblity that had Europe actually united behind the sanctions, instead of exploiting them for profit and undermining their intent, the war, inlcuding this 'horrible atrocity', could have been avoided?

Banning Nazi propaganda in France and Germany is not as far removed as a ban proposal on burning the US flag. It touches a raw nerve for many.

Except we don't have any laws against burning flags. If they get passed the Supreme Court knocks them down. Every one in a while the issue flares up, but there will never be a constitutional amendment banning it either. Nice try though.

Now onto the real stupid, logic defying statement:

The Nazi party ban in Germany and France has nothing to do with Freedom of speech per se. It is about self-sensorship because of the terrible suffering the Nazis caused on millions

Hey Jackass, if it was truly self censorship you wouldn't need a law.

Americans practice self-censorship all the time, it has nothing to do with freedom of speech

Exactly, and we don't have any laws that require us to self censor. Really, grab a dictionary and look up the words "self" and "censor."

in our case we think the Nazi party has no room in our society, you do, well that's your right.

Again, thank you for proving my point. You use the power of the state to impose your impression of what is "right" when it comes to thought on others. Notice the difference? State power vs. what an individual wishes to do? Remember the whole "top down, bottom up" rant?

Your indignance about how we feel towards "Freedom of Expression" vs. Nazism once again shows you narrow-minded vision as if France lived in a 1960's-style Soviet Union style.

No, it shows exactly what I was saying before: France is a culture built on a more top-down control basis; the US is a culture built on a more bottoms-up control basis. You guys don't seem to mind having "thems in charge" telling you what to do. As a culture we do.

Not only is it not illegal to burn an American flag, it is the only proper way to retire a worn flag.

From the VFW, "The United States Flag Code states: "The Flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem of display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferable by burning." Throughout America, volunteer organizations commonly carry out this duty as an act of community service, destroying old, worn, tattered, frayed, and/or faded Flags.

Here is a detail on the ceremony to dispose of a worn flag.

Burning a flag to demonstrate hatred of the US is legal everywhere, even if some places have laws against it, they are un-enforcable.

In the US, one of the most common expressions of patriotism is the use of fireworks on the Fourth of July. This is illegal in many states. Why are you not upset at this suppression of free expression?

I have a theory. It is because you are far more interested in bashing the US than in thinking about what you say.

Is it legal to burn the French flag? I don't know, I am just wondering.

Except we don't have any laws against burning flags. If they get passed the Supreme Court knocks them down. Every one in a while the issue flares up, but there will never be a constitutional amendment banning it either. Nice try though

Would you care to know who put the pressure on Yahoo? There's a little more to the story than just "repression" from the French government (the ADF is an American organization, isn't it?). It seems that Yahoo found no objection in banning other "offensive" material. Nice try indeed, FRB.

No, it shows exactly what I was saying before: France is a culture built on a more top-down control basis; the US is a culture built on a more bottoms-up control basis. You guys don't seem to mind having "thems in charge" telling you what to do. As a culture we do.

I don't completely disagree with that given your Constitutional background, however the subject of the French ban on Nazi paraphinellia is not a good comparative example in my opinion. It's one of those laws the vast majority of the people can live with given the context. Again, thre are easy ways to aquire Nazi paraphinellia if someone wishes to. You're taking an exception and making it into a xenophobic generality.

I have a theory. It is because you are far more interested in bashing the US than in thinking about what you say.

What's the nature of this site, de-programmer? I don't know about you but I've never seen French sites dedicated to thrashing anything American that borders on racism. I actually like America for many things, I just find it annoying, even amusing, when you start patronizing others about Morality, which is in my opinion the main nature behind this so-called "anti-Americanism" in Europe and elsewhere.

Would you care to know who put the pressure on Yahoo? There's a little more to the story than just "repression" from the French government (the ADF is an American organization, isn't it?). It seems that Yahoo found no objection in banning other "offensive" material. Nice try indeed, FRB.

ADL != Government. Yahoo removed the Nazi memorabilia *in the US* of their own accord. The gov't didn't tell them to, and other auction sites still have the legal right to sell Nazi memorabilia if they so wish... so yes, it indeed was not only a nice try, but completely correct.

There's an old phrase that you'd be wise to learn: "When you find yourself in a hole stop digging."

Actually, forget that. This is too much fun.

You're taking an exception and making it into a xenophobic generality.

No I'm not. You have a *law* on the books, which is not making a generality; it's stating fact. Whether or not anyone can buy Nazi memorabilia is orthogonal to the argument. Pot is illegal in this country. Just because anyone can go buy it if they wish doesn't neutralize the legal aspects of smoking pot (now if you really want to score some anti-american points you'd take pot shots at our dumb ass drug war).

I don't know about you but I've never seen French sites dedicated to thrashing anything American that borders on racism.

a) That's what Le Monde is for
b) "French" isn't a race you bonehead.

OK FBR, so it's a law. Big fucking deal. Like I've said, you always seem to point out the odd exceptions - "French-only" words, the Ebay ban... cases that no one in France cares about, let alone is aware of. Whatever fuels your xenophobia... after all, that's what this site is for, you being the worst offender. Ask any American living in France if they feel any difference in Freedom of expression whatsoever. It's ironic how great American talents like Nabokov (he was teaching in the US) or James Baldwin had to be published in France by the way. I wonder why...

a) That's what Le Monde is for

Le Monde "racist"? Show us. Do you read French by the way?

b) "French" isn't a race you bonehead

Uh?

Zoomerx, why do you think that anything anti-France is rasist?

Now making fun of my typing would be "rasist", of course I meant to type "RACIST".

"I just find it annoying, even amusing, when you start patronizing others about Morality,"

Like I said before. France has always been objectively pro-Saddam. You say that it is our simplism, our naiive moralistic worldview that allows us to be hoodwinked by Bush into fighting a war for oil.

I say that France has surrendered to depravity decades ago. You think that the Oil for Food scandal is no big deal. That our 'moralism' on it is laughable. Now Kofi is refusing to release documents to the Security Council's own investigation on the grounds of 'privacy'.

The United Nations yesterday threw up a stone wall in the oil-for-food scandal, insisting that contracts between the world body and private companies should not be turned over to investigators.
In a defiant move that has infuriated probers, Secretary-General Kofi Annan threw his support behind a letter from former oil-for-food head Benon Sevan to officials of a Dutch company that inspected Iraqi oil shipments. The letter directed the company not to hand over documents to congressional committees and other "governmental authorities."

New York Post

I hear over and over from you guys that you know the "reality" of war, and that is why you oppose it so deeply. Well, you were presented with a supposedly 'non-violent' means to deal with Saddam that could have averted war. The sanctions program. And what does France and the UN do? (I don't expect anything better from two powers we defeated, Russia and Germany) The undermine the sanctions by perverting them. Ensuring that they would never work and making either war, or the acceptance of the continued rule of Saddam inevitable.

You Europeans had your big test of whether your theory of soft power would work, and what did you do? You fumbled it. You proved that the UN is worse than useless. In fact, it appears that Oil for Food money was going to Al Qaeda. You proved, against everything you claim to believe, that military power remains, for the forseeable future, the way to deal with rogue states.

Think of the lost opportunity to shut up the chickenhawks and neo-cons! You could have shown us that your way works. You could have shown us that there were 'other ways' to remove Saddam. Instead, Chirac has destroyed the UN by selling its veto to Saddam.

The UN is now, in Churchil's phrase, 'like a cut flower, beautiful to look at, but doomed to die' I don't know how much longer you expect the US to take the body seriously. Even Canada is backing off of it.

This is what your sophisticated European view of morality has wrought. I am sure you are very proud.

And Frenchmen are not a race. You have a common culture, but someone were to take a pre-lingual French baby and give it to a Greek mother to be raised in Greece, for example, you would have a hard time discerning the French origins of the child once grown. Try that with an American Indian, a Black African, for example.

Since we are the native speakers of English and we all agree that you use the term 'race' incorrectly, would you kindly provide us with a working definition of 'race' and 'racism' so that we can understand what you are talking about?

If I were French, I would throw Chirac out on his ear at the earliest opportunity. I might even vote Socialist to remove that scumbag from power. Yet 80% of you supported him in his perversion of the UN.

Can anybody show me any mention of Kofi's refusal to cooperate with the Security Council's investigation. I admit that my French is not fluent, so perhaps I am missing something?

Le Monde International Section

OK FBR, so it's a law. Big fucking deal.

Nice way to conceed defeat. French to the end.

Like I've said, you always seem to point out the odd exceptions - "French-only" words, the Ebay ban... cases that no one in France cares about, let alone is aware of.

Really? Answer me this then: if no one knows and/or cares about these laws then

a) why are there laws on the books (they don't write themselves)?

b) why were the lawsuits filed (lawsuits don't file themselves)?

Whatever fuels your xenophobia... after all, that's what this site is for, you being the worst offender.

Nope, xenophobia means you hate all forigners. I have no problem with strange or foreign things. I just like bashing the French.

Ask any American living in France if they feel any difference in Freedom of expression whatsoever.

Ok. Here's two: Merde in France and The Dissident Frogman.

Le Monde "racist"? Show us.

Racist in the way you define racist: i.e. not racist. But LeMonde is anti-American. But, unlike you, I could give a shit. LeMonde can print whatever drivel it likes, I'll continue to ignore it.

b) "French" isn't a race you bonehead

Uh?

Yes, you are a nationality, not a race.

Race

You're racist.

Other question?

Race..

I think the word you are looking for is xenophobe Especially in the sense of contempt, not that of fear. I would cop to that one if it didn't contain the modifier 'unduly'. :)

I notice you chose the second definition of race:

A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

I can tell you that the example given sounds archaic to my ear, and I am sure, to the ears of most modern speakers of English. The modern term for this sense would be 'nation', as in the 'Six Nations Rugby Tournament'. Could you really imagine it being called the 'Six Races' tournament?

The term 'race' in the sense that you use it went out with the Nazis. Of course it is little surprise that it is still in vogue with the French.

Imagine that, a free online dictionary that is misleading. By my own rules, however, I have to give you credit for scoring a point. Just don't expect me to actually believe it, anymore than I could lecture you on French usage.

I retract the reference to the NY Post and the lack of a story in 'Le Monde'. The paragraph quoted, while technically correct, is very misleading, and in fact Kofi seems to be co-operating.

Race

You're racist.

Other question?

I'll leave the liguistic arguement alone since de-programmer did such a good job already, but if by this defenition you define "racism" then congratulations, we're in the same boat. If anti-French blather = racism then I'm afraid anti-Americanism does to (not to mention the anti-Israel and anti-English attitudes the French harbor).

Still, I stand the first definition:

A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.

Being anti-french is about as racist as being anti-american (i.e. Not!)

Zoomerx, why do you think that anything anti-France is rasist?

Not anything. Replace "French" with "Mexican" on many of these US websites and see what happens. It's politically-correct racism. Pave is actually pretty tame.

Really? Answer me this then: if no one knows and/or cares about these laws then...

Do you give a rat's ass about the ban on sodomy in certain States (speaking of silly laws)? Same with 99.99% of French people (or should I say "of Merovingian extract"?) regarding the Ebay/Nazi issue. Do I accuse you of being a slave to authority because of one obscure law?

I have no problem with strange or foreign things.

I love the way you mention "strange" and "foreign things " in the same sentence, that says a lot about you, FRB.

"Dissident Frogman" and "Merde In France" are run by Frenchmen (at least Dissident"). I'm not sure what you're trying to get at except making my point. Have they been "banned" for thrashing France?

But LeMonde is anti-American.

Because they don't necessarly agree with US policies? Do you know how absurd that sounds? How do you consider The Guardian or Al Jaazeera, Really, really, really anti-American" ?

Replace "French" with "Mexican"

The Mexican people arose from the cultural and racial intermixing of the Spanish and Native Americans, who are indisputibly another race. That makes the Mexicans a separate race, and one could deem a 'Pave Mexico' site as 'racist' and I would not object. 'Pave Spain' however cannot be considered racist. Xenophopic, sure, nationalist, why not? But racist? No.

Do you give a rat's ass about the ban on sodomy in certain States (speaking of silly laws)? Same with 99.99% of French people (or should I say "of Merovingian extract"?) regarding the Ebay/Nazi issue. Do I accuse you of being a slave to authority because of one obscure law?

In fact I do. They're (in my opionion, and apparently in some cases that have made it to the supreme court their's as well) unconstitutional. Bad laws are bad laws -- I don't how mundane they are -- and should be fought.

Again, though, how long ago were the sodomy laws passed in this country and how long ago were your anti-free speech laws passed in France?

I love the way you mention "strange" and "foreign things " in the same sentence, that says a lot about you, FRB.

No, says a lot about the definition of Xenophope:

Xenophobe:A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

"Dissident Frogman" and "Merde In France" are run by Frenchmen (at least Dissident").

I was under the impression that they were ex-pats. If not, then mea-culpa (although I'm pretty sure Merde's an ex-pat).

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at except making my point. Have they been "banned" for thrashing France?

You seemed to have forgotten your point. Let's review:

Ask any American living in France if they feel any difference in Freedom of expression whatsoever.

You didn't ask if there were anyone who were banned for "thrashing France" but if there were any Americans who didn't had problems with Freedom of Expression. Considering Merde is a Libertarian he (she?) has a huge problem with such laws. Go read through his archives some time (as has the Frogman)

Because they don't necessarly agree with US policies? Do you know how absurd that sounds? How do you consider The Guardian or Al Jaazeera, Really, really, really anti-American"

Well, considering you consider this site anti-French how is that any different than Le Monde being anti-American? Aren't we just disagreeing with French policy (and culture, and language and food....). You say po-ta-toh, I say poh-ta-toe.

As a French, I totally disagree with Zoomerx and Max on their definition of race. Of course French is not a race.

I never brought up the issue, FBR did, I'm not sure why, hence my "Uh?" . Of course "French" is not a race.

By "French", I meant most "French citizens", FBR probably know that but he is trying to split hairs.

ok, so if you are racist, it's just because you hate non-humans, so cats, cows...tomatos perhaps?

Playing with words, just to say that FRB and his pals hate us, is waste of time.

Again, though, how long ago were the sodomy laws passed in this country and how long ago were your anti-free speech laws passed in France?

Your point?

The internet has changed a lot of things. Research hate speeches, bomb-making material or type "Allah is great", chances are somebody might be watching.

ok, so if you are racist, it's just because you hate non-humans, so cats, cows...tomatos perhaps?

Where did I say anyone on this site was racist? I simply brought up the fact that some comments were "borderline" racist. Again, replace "French" with "Chinese" or "Mexican", then it would be labeled as racist. Personally I don't find Pave "racist". Much to do about nothing.

Sorry Max, I think I misunderstood your comment and replied unapropriately.

Zommerx: it was an answer for goldsoundz, but pavers sometimes are racists, try to compare their speech to what Lepen is saying.

ok ok no problem :)

Some Pavers here just have a tunnel vision of France. It's typical of the American Europhobe. I find British French-bashers more interesting, actually. Same nastiness but without the tunnel vision ;-)

out of topic:
what do you think about that?

it's completely anti Bush, not objective at all, but this is funny theory, don't you think?

France has always been objectively pro-Saddam.

Not again...

It's a catch-phrase neocons love to make, but no. France put her interests first, no matter how you see it. Tell us with a straight face the US never turned a blind eye to bloody dictators in order to protect its self-interests. Again, that's a rather hypocritical statement.

Is the US "pro-torture" by the way?

Again, though, how long ago were the sodomy laws passed in this country and how long ago were your anti-free speech laws passed in France?

Your point?

That sodomy laws, while dumb and unconstitutional, are almost all anachronisms. France's anti-speech laws have that new car smell.

I never brought up the issue, FBR did

You most certainly did. Reread what you wrote: I don't know about you but I've never seen French sites dedicated to thrashing anything American that borders on racism.

Playing with words, just to say that FRB and his pals hate us, is waste of time.

Ah, but Max, much like Zoomer its not French *people* we hate, but French *policy*. You see, that makes *all* the difference.

it was an answer for goldsoundz, but pavers sometimes are racists, try to compare their speech to what Lepen is saying.

Ahh... nice attempt to paint the "pavers" with the faciest brush. So, since you wish to walk down that road...

LePen is an idiot. Elect him and your slide into irrelevance just happens at a faster pace. Remember, you guys aren't pumping out babies fast enough to restock your population. Without immigration France gets paved a hell of a lot sooner than expected. Immigration isn't a problem, it a solution. The problem I see with France is you seem to be doing a piss poor job of integrating the immigrants that you do have. For as much bitching Zoomer did about race relations in the States why is it that the immigrant population has a *much* higher unemployment rate that Frances already pathetic 10% national rate? Well, the only conclusions that you can draw are

a) the immigrants are too stupid to hold a job (this is, of course, a bullshit excuse)

or

b) France may just be a wee bit of an issue around race / nationality themselves, since if France was truly a colorblind society you would expect unemployment to be evenly distributed throughout the entire able population.

This goes back to my original post (which, by the way, wasn't inflammatory, didn't include name calling, etc. It was Zoomer who started off all the fun with post that followed): France tries to solve problems using a top-down approach. "How do we solve a problem like an Algerian?" "Put 'em in the Projects" (we tried this 60s, it sucks, its de-humanizing and causes more trouble that it purports to solve). "How do we treat a problem like anti-Semitism?" "Don't let the Muslims wear headscarves in school!" (talk about "racist").

You want France to regain its glory years? The solution is simple: get the government the hell out of the way of the French people. Don't hamstring them with dumb headscarves laws, "oh, he said something nasty about me so he should go to jail" laws, roll back your under funded and economy-sapping entitlement programs, stop propping up crap that eliminates competition and forces the French to pay more than they need to (farm subsidies, cinema subsidies, etc.). Don’t try to persevere your "culture" like its some museum piece. Cultures are living, breathing things: when you set them free wonderful things happen. Let people try new and inventive things, which includes letting them fail. Push political power downwards to the city / state / district level where Joe Froggy has more of a say. Most of all, don’t define yourself as "Not [fill in the blank]" (usually "America"), which is exactly what you’ve been doing for the last 50 years.

Oh, and before you point out that the US has some of the same problems above: yes, this is true. No country is perfect, but there are degrees of "better and worse." For all of our faults we try our damnedest to adhere to the above, and this is what made us a powerhouse.

Zoomerx:
Yes, sure, and I think the problem is not really when they bash our government but more our people.

France has always been objectively pro-Saddam.

Not again...

Yes again, because you seem to have a tenuous grasp of logic and reason...

It's a catch-phrase neocons love to make, but no. France put her interests first, no matter how you see it.

That's right. You put your interests first. Your interest were best served by keeping Saddam in power, ergo Pro Saddam. For crying out loud, this is elementary school stuff.

I agree with you FRB.

Just a little thing about headscarves, this law don't ban only headscarves at school but all religious symbol..but ok, we all know that headscarves were the aim of this law.

You most certainly did. Reread what you wrote...

No I didn't. By "French" I meant "inhabitants of France", a 5 year old would have understood that, but you turned it into some discussion about "race", I didn't. You're splitting hair over nothing, that's your style.

Elect him and your slide into irrelevance just happens at a faster pace

I thought we were already "irrelevant"? You're funny.

You want France to regain its glory years?

Ah yes... "irrelevance"... "former glory"... favourite neocon catch-words. No, FBR, we don't really care about "former glory" and "kicking ass", it's your turn now, so go play with your marbles. This is your typical American obsessional bullshit of the "I'm Number One" concept. And you wonder why "they" hate you sometimes.

We'll see how you handle the problem of Hispanic immigration, FRB, 10 years from now, btw.

Tell us with a straight face the US never turned a blind eye to bloody dictators in order to protect its self-interests. Again, that's a rather hypocritical statement.

There seems to be quite a lot of hypocrisy going on lately. One could interpret from Zoomerx’s comment above he is stipulating that France turned a blind eye to Saddam (the bloody dictator). OK, I agree.

So, if France, and indeed, most of the Arab world, and in fact, the US, all ignored Saddam and this bloody régime for 9 years, then are we all not hypocrites in going hog wild over the Abu Ghraib prison situation? (Not that anyone could condone the actions there).

Indeed, the Arab “street” has gone wild over this incident. But where was that same rage as 300,000 Iraqis were killed by Saddam? Where was the outrage of its media when the charred bodies of 4 Americans were dragged through the streets and dismembered by cheering crowds? Where was the outrage at the taped decapitation of Daniel Pearl, or the video of the Italian whose brains were shot out? Where was the frenzy as 3 Japanese hostages were threatened with having their throats cut? Where is the rage against those who place bombs and blow up hundreds of innocent Iraqis who are guilty of nothing more than working to restore civilian services to there country? Where is the Arab rage as diplomats are gunned down and aid workers in the Middle East have their faces blown off by “improvised explosive devices” as they haul medical supplies?

Are the examples listed above any worse than what the US has done? No. Except the reaction of the US people to this is much different that the reaction of the “Arab” street to what I call their atrocities, and the fact that the US is held to a much higher standard (and correctly so in this case).

Zoomerx is constantly talking about the “moral” structure of the US. A quote in the paper sums this up pretty well: “…the reaction to this incident is indicative of the larger moral asymmetries that are the burdens of the West when it goes to war, a culture that so often equates the understandable absence of perfection, either moral, political, or military, with abject failure—a fact not lost on our enemies.”

So, a large majority of Americans and our press are now demanding that the government address the “moral” inadequacies of a small number of of our soldiers in Iraq. And, the guilty will be punished and the problems corrected. Would I be a hypocrite to ask that the Arab “street”, where bin Laden is often made out to be a hero, demand the same standards of their own governments and press?

France tries to solve problems using a top-down approach. "How do we solve a problem like an Algerian?" "Put 'em in the Projects" (we tried this 60s, it sucks, its de-humanizing and causes more trouble that it purports to solve). "How do we treat a problem like anti-Semitism?" "Don't let the Muslims wear headscarves in school!" (talk about "racist").

Look who's talking here... Maybe FRB would be kind enough to give us the combined unumployment rate of Black and Latino Americans, add to that the crime rate, teen pregancy, fatherlesss kids etc... just to see, OK?. And your inner cities (Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, LA... I've been there) are just perfect example of good urban planning and race integration... Give us a break FBR. At least be honest.

I can recognize our issues (I don't necessarly agree with the scarf ban, the Ebay issue is stupid, and I'll continue to use "email"), but don't insult our intelligence by painting this idyllic picture of your nation where such problems do not exist... Again, let me remind you that Arabs here have never been barred from anywhere, so a more little humility, please.

Ok Zoomerex. Its official: You ride the short bus. Its the only way it explains your flea sized short term memory, apparent inability to read, and all the logical skills of a bronze medalist at the 50 meter "dash" at the special olympics:

but don't insult our intelligence by painting this idyllic picture of your nation where such problems do not exist.

Apparently you stopped reading my previous post where I wrote: Oh, and before you point out that the US has some of the same problems above: yes, this is true. No country is perfect, but there are degrees of "better and worse." For all of our faults we try our damnedest to adhere to the above, and this is what made us a powerhouse.

Now, please re-read that previous statement. Mouth out the syllables if needs be. I can wait until you're finished.

...

Ok.. has it sunk in yet?

We'll see how you handle the problem of Hispanic immigration, FRB, 10 years from now, btw.

What problem Zoomer? Why, what a racist implication? Is there something wrong with Hispanics? Why would they be a problem? Please, do elaborate.

Ah yes... "irrelevance"... "former glory"... favourite neocon catch-words. No, FBR, we don't really care about "former glory" and "kicking ass", it's your turn now, so go play with your marbles. This is your typical American obsessional bullshit of the "I'm Number One" concept. And you wonder why "they" hate you sometimes.

So France is content on just being France, eh? I mean, chairing the drafting of the EU constitution (which goes out of its way to shelter French farms and industry from competition) is just an act of charity? Your gov't officials telling prospective EU countries that they should learn to keep their mouths shut was just a little constructive criticism? Joint military maneuvers with China off of the coast of Taiwan during their election season a pan-governmental tea party? France, such the wall-flower at the global ball.

And btw, please define neo-con (without heading to Google to look it up first).

Again, let me remind you that Arabs here have never been barred from anywhere, so a more little humility, please.

Why remind me of something I never claimed? I just pointed out that they have a higher unemployment rate than the rest of france (much higher). So how do you 'splain it?

thought we were already "irrelevant"? You're funny.

And when all else fails just make shit up. If you're going to make a "splitting hairs" jab at least get your shit straight. Where did I say France was already irrelevant?

"France put her interests first, no matter how you see it. "

This is fine, then spare us the lectures about how the French 'know the true meaning of war'. You were in it for the money, end of story. Don't assume that everyone else was though.

BTW, its not "splitting hairs" to point out that the term 'racist' does not apply to this site, by any stretch of the imagination. Even a Frenchman on the television the other day misused this word. Please understand one thing. It is our language, the English term 'racist' cannot apply in disputes between those of European extraction. No matter what you have agreed the term means in the French, the word you are looking for in English is 'xenophobe'.

Why, what a racist implication? Is there something wrong with Hispanics? Why would they be a problem?

(laughs)

They're a "problem" in the context of illegal immigration, and it's getting worse. Also they do not assimilate as quickly and as well as Asians and Euros. I actually read that in The Economist I beleive. Same problem with newer immigrants in France. Please don't turn this into a racism thing.

So France is content on just being France, eh?

Whatever that means, FRB. "Former" world power, 4th/5th strongest economy in the world, a rather high in standard of living, doing the best we can.... I say it's not too bad of a record and far from your doom and gloom view.

Where did I say France was already irrelevant?

Come on FRB, just admit at least you implied so.

This is fine, then spare us the lectures about how the French 'know the true meaning of war'.

I've never claimed that, but if you want to get into it, yes we do actually. As a matter of fact, the US Pentagon screened The Battle Of Algiers before the Irak invasion. Seems that somebody in the audience took the torture scenes a little too literally ;-)

You were in it for the money, end of story. Don't assume that everyone else was though.

I've never denied that, although whether the French government is completely implicated remains to be seen. I don't think France was alone questioning the justification for war, am I wrong?

They're a "problem" in the context of illegal immigration, and it's getting worse.

Really? Please elaborate.

Also they do not assimilate as quickly and as well as Asians and Euros.

Hmmm... and how do you define "well?" Personally, all the hispanics in my neighborhood seem to be doing just fine, as are all the ones I meet during the day, be they janitors or CEOs. Hispanics are assimilating just as well as the Italians, Irish, Polish, Chinese, Slovak, Russian, and every other race and nationality who have come to this country.

So France is content on just being France, eh?

Whatever that means, FRB.

You said France doesn't care about obtaining its "Former Glory," which assumes its content with its place in the world, which is laughable since its been doing everything in its power to show just how important it thinks it is on the world stage.

Come on FRB, just admit at least you implied [that france is irrelevant].

Come on Zoomerex, stop being a lazy twat and spend the five minutes it takes to re-read any of my previous posts. Whenever that topic has come up its always been "France is heading towards irrelevancy." Jesus, my one-week old seems to be able to reason better than you can.

BTW, how's that NeoCon definition coming along?

Oh please, FBR, illegal immigration from Mexico is NOT a problem in the US? Do you want more links?

Hispanics are assimilating just as well as the Italians, Irish, Polish, Chinese, Slovak, Russian, and every other race and nationality who have come to this country.

Your point of view (I'm not dismissing it), not the Economist's (I'll try to find the article for you). But I'm talking about Hispanics flooding the borders today , not 19th century Italian, Russian etc... immigrants, big difference. This is what you don't seem to get regarding relatively "new" Arab immigrants in France. North Africans in my neighborhood who have been in France for generations are doing just "fine" too, thank you.

... which is laughable since its been doing everything in its power to show just how important it thinks it is on the world stage.

That's pure French-bashing nonsense. Maybe France needs to be replaced on the permanent counsel? At least that would be a more pertinent argument.

Come on Zoomerex, stop being a lazy twat and spend the five minutes it takes to re-read any of my previous posts.

Didn't you once eloquently write that "France is dying and I couldn't care less"? . I may be lazy but you're in total denial.

Jesus, my one-week old seems to be able to reason better than you can.

Don't you have more important things to take care of?

North Africans in my neighborhood who have been in France for generations are doing just "fine" too, thank you.

The French Interior Ministry said that the number of anti-Semitic attacks committed in France rose in the first 3 months of 2004. Influenced by the 6 million Muslim citizens, the French have allowed anti-Semitism to run amok. But Zoomerx says there is no problem with the “Arabs”. I wonder why this is not a “problem” to the French…..

But I'm talking about Hispanics flooding the borders today , not 19th century Italian, Russian etc... immigrants, big difference.

The Dutch (who take over the presidency of the “new” EU) called for tough new EU-wide immigration laws that “would expel unsuccessful asylum seekers from EU countries and send illegal immigrants packing.”

During the last 20 years, Western Europe has received three times as many refugees as has US/Canada. This is causing Europe’s tolerance to immigration to wane, in part because of concerns about the drain this causes on public finances. Just wait until the immigrants from the 10 new EU countries start heading West.

So, Zoomerx, I see no “big” difference.

"I don't think France was alone questioning the justification for war, am I wrong?"

That's right, Germany and Russia where there with you as well. Sucking on the tit of Iraqi Oil. Engaged in colonial rape of the Iraqi people through your proxy Saddam.

What is not even under question is the fact that Saddam had signed over 25% of her oil fields exclusively to the French for exploitation if Chirac could get the sanctions lifted.

He probably figured it was worth it because of France's UN veto. This is why weak an irrelevant countries like France and weak countries like Russia should not have vetos anymore. You are too easily bought. China has her own interests, which are larger than can be bought by a petty tyrant. As does the US. India should have your veto. Europe should have England's.

And by the way, the term 'objectively pro-Saddam' means that, whatever your motivations, your actions benefited that tyrant.

How is it coming on finding those 'other methods' of removing Saddam that you polliwogs are always prattling on about?

remember that saddam was USA puppet too, and I'm not sure this war has begun because Saddam was a dirty tyrant with his people, the reasons are more politics than morals.

Sorry Max, but when you link to articles that use phrases like "Junior Bush", you are not winning anybody over. I wonder if your purpose is not to prevent anybody on your side from defecting? Who else would be swayed by that puerile commentary but a leftie?

I have never defended GHW Bush on this site. I think the 9-11 made clear that his European-style realpolitik was ineffectual. Your govt will only figure that out if you stop ignoring their corruption as long as they paint it as opposition to America. Look what Germany has saddled themselves with because Schroeder told them that a vote for him would spite America. They have immolated their own country for this purpose. You polliwogs are stooges, swayed and manipulated by every bit of Anti-American propaganda you see. Who is the moron?

Speaking of morons, when are you going to take that cigarette out of your mouth?

One more question, prompted by your other stupid web site. How many non democratic countries are there in the Americas? I will spot you Cuba and of course French Guyana where the head of state is listed as Jaques Chirac, now you name some more....

I'm waiting......

Gee. Maybe the US had a method to it's madness, keeping the commies out of South America, since one place we failed is the place with the worst human rights abuses in the hemisphere and another is owned outright apparently by France.

Influenced by the 6 million Muslim citizens, the French have allowed anti-Semitism to run amok

A little like me saying your government has "allowed" violent crime, teenage pragnancy etc...(in which you lead the industrialized world) run amok. Easy to say.

But Zoomerx says there is no problem with the “Arabs”.

No I don't, there is a problem. I said that for the vast majority , North Africans who have been in France for several generations have adapted well. I know scores of them, went to school together, worked together etc.... Listening to you, it sounds as if 6 million Arabs are on the brink of a revolution. It's rather baffling to me how you can criticize this existing problem (I do admit there is a problem), looking at your own inner-cities where Blacks and Hispanics are far from reaching the "American Dream"... I'be been through some of these areas.

During the last 20 years, Western Europe has received three times as many refugees as has US/Canada. This is causing Europe’s tolerance to immigration to wane, in part because of concerns about the drain this causes on public finances.

That is true. California is feeling the same pressure and it is getting worse.

That's right, Germany and Russia where there with you as well.

Make it 80% of the European opinion. I'm not mentioning the Middle East.

You are too easily bought.

Nonsense.

remember that saddam was USA puppet too

Saddam is a CIA creation. The US has a history of propping up or supporting tyrans while lecturing others on Morality.

Here is a detailed account, including names of contacts, and details of moneys funded, to Saddam while he was being given intensive CIA training at Quantico Virginia.

Oh please, FBR, illegal immigration from Mexico is NOT a problem in the US? Do you want more links?

Sure, how about one that isn’t over 7 years old? If illegal immigration was threatening to become an economic burden in 1997 them I’m sure it must have hit by now...

... any time now ...

... still waiting ...

... gonna go in the shitter any second now ...

Or, maybe the Economist's predictions were, oh, I don't know, wrong. Hey, didn't the economy go gangbusters between 1997-2001? Sure, it went a bit tits up for about 24 months when the bubble burst (quite a mild recession actually, chugging along quite nicely now), but I have a sneaking suspicion that it wasn’t illegal Hispanic immigrants who were being overpaid to work at “pie-in-the-sky” dot.com companies. So yes, please give me more links.

Didn't you once eloquently write that "France is dying and I couldn't care less"? . I may be lazy but you're in total denial.

Do you understand the difference between dying and dead? Somewhat similar to the difference between sliding into irrelevance and irrelevant.

That's pure French-bashing nonsense. Maybe France needs to be replaced on the permanent counsel? At least that would be a more pertinent argument.

***cough, cough*** Maybe you should check with all those new EU members France (with Germany) are trying to fuck.

Don't you have more important things to take care of?

She's sleeping soundly. And debunking your crap isn't exactly a time sink you know.

Didn't you once eloquently write that "France is dying and I couldn't care less"? . I may be lazy but you're in total denial.

Do you understand the difference between dying and dead? Somewhat similar to the differency between "sliding into irrelevance" and "irrelevant"

Illegal immigration.

problem?, what problem?. FBR doesn't see any any problem...

Yes, of course The Economist's article must have been wrong, naturally. Perharps lying too! Same as that poster I forgot the name: If I don't agree with you, you must be lying.

Do you understand the difference between dying and dead? Somewhat similar to the difference between sliding into irrelevance and irrelevant.

You're the Master of hair-splitting, FBR. Are you an attorney?

Link #1: Right wing news site quoting a "closed border" advocate on a panel discussion about immigration. Only focuses on California. That's a keeper (that's sarcasm by the way).

Link #2: Is actually about how Gray Davis and the courts have tried to get Prop 187 -- voted for by the people of California -- overturned, a law that has never been enforced to to a court stay. From Fox News (that everyone likes to point out is, um, a bit on the right), also only about California (notice a theme here), with a nice money quote:

Other states must look to California as an example of what happens to governors who refuse to address the problem of unchecked illegal immigration.

Which leads us to link #3, also old, hysterically so. Are you even aware that Davis was thrown out of office? See "Link #2" above.

Yes, of course The Economist's article must have been wrong, naturally.

Well, considering the article was written seven years ago and none of the dire predictions have come true I think its save to say that, yes, they were wrong.

a) Do you actually read the articles after you google for them

b) do you actually read anyone who replies to you. What part of "In 1997 the economist said illegal immigration could hurt the economy, 1997-2001 was one of the greatest expansions of the US economy in history" are you having a hard time understanding? The Economist (a great magazine) said "heads" and the coin flip ended up being "tails." I think that constitutes getting it wrong.

You're the Master of hair-splitting, FBR. Are you an attorney?

Nope, just someone who uses his noggin, not someone who accuses someone else of hair-splitting when proven wrong.

I happen to have an American friend, an architect who specializes in federal prisons. Business is booming.

Really? France needs your friend more at the moment.

I don't know about you but I've never seen French sites dedicated to thrashing anything American that borders on racism.

If you don't get enough of the opinion that Americans are fat, lazy, stupid, barbaric blights upon the earth in day to day life, just Google words like "impérialiste" for results like this.

We'll see how you handle the problem of Hispanic immigration, FRB, 10 years from now, btw.

It's been going on for.. well, forever, and hispanics are already the second largest demographic after caucasians. Things among most of the hispanic community continue to improve though, rather than getting worse.

One could interpret from Zoomerx’s comment above he is stipulating that France turned a blind eye to Saddam (the bloody dictator). OK, I agree.

I disagree. "Turn a blind eye" means roughly "to ignore", not "to preserve".

Your gov't officials telling prospective EU countries that they should learn to keep their mouths shut was just a little constructive criticism?

Or who should be allowed to speak up at all.

No matter what you have agreed the term means in the French, the word you are looking for in English is 'xenophobe'.

How about 'bigot'? Hey, this is kinda fun.

Come on FRB, just admit at least you implied so.

I'll admit that I have, if it'll make you feel any better.