America boasts the world's best French restaurant, American Chef Thomas Keller's French Laundry. More importantly, of course, America is the home of the perfect doughnut.
And the fast food chain.
The French decry American fast food, yet they scarf it down in record quantities, with "McDo" dominating French fast food:
The French market for fast food has grown by 5.8% since 2001 to reach a value of €3.4 billion (US$3.2 billion) in 2002.Burger outlets dominated fast food throughout the review period, taking a share of 78% of value sales in 2002.
McDonald’s led the French fast food market in 2002 with 26% of the market in value terms. ... Turnover for the global McDonald’s Corporation in 2002 amounted to US$15.4 billion, an increase of 24% on the previous year.
The market is forecast to grow by about 29% from 2002 to 2007 to reach a value of over €4 billion (US$4 billion). ... Burger outlets is predicted to remain as the largest sector in 2007, growing by 18% over the forecast period to reach over €3 billion in sales or almost 76% of the market.
The McDonald's division in France is the company's most successful, judged on a per-customer basis. It's by far the largest fast-food retailer in France.
Then there is the added ignominy of Spain expropriating the dazzle and glory from the staid kitchens of France:
According to [The New York Times Sunday Magazine], Barcelona has dethroned Paris as food capital to place itself at the forefront of experimental cuisine. Or, in a broader sense, Spanish gastronomical supremacy has displaced France as a worldwide culinary reference.As Marc Veyrat*, the famous French chef who runs two three-star restaurants, admitted earlier this year, 'The most interesting chefs in the world today are coming out of Spain. They are not conservatively following tradition. They know how to dare.' Veyrat and other eminences have noted that there are some 15 or 20 rip-roaring chefs in Spain right now, almost all of them under 40, who, if not quite as dazzlingly inventive as [Chef Ferrán Adrià, proprietor of the Catalan El Bulli], do imitate his bold techniques and share his pioneering spirit of adventure.
Even the insuperable primacy of French wines is slipping. Though this is still hard to top, but this and this cannot be ignored.
Proud France has been reduced to niche-cuisine bottom-feeding, seeking out markets where she can once again dominate. And she has sought and found just that. Few will argue with her dominance in a niche none were even aware of: fine prison cuisine.
The book, Je Cuisine Pour Moi Tout Seul (I Cook For Me Alone), sets out a hundred simple recipes, such as the galette prisonniere, the salade solitaire or the "simplest sponge cake in the world", that make creative use of the ingredients available to France's 60,000 inmates, all at rock-bottom prices.In all, more than 600 recipes from France's 165 prisons vied for publication in a competition presided over by Marc Haeberlin, who runs the Michelin three-starred restaurant l'Auberge de l'Ill* in Alsace.
The book is the brainchild of Dr Claude Deroussent, who runs the medical wing of the Ensisheim prison for long-term offenders in Alsace.
And:
Mr Haeberlin said he was highly impressed by the ingenuity of the detainees."Some of the recipes were extremely original. But you could tell that some of them were written by people who knew the business. I suspect there must be a few ex-chefs doing time."
Unfortunately the book has not found a commercial publisher but is being distributed by post to prisoners who request it.
"It is a shame because these ideas could be really useful to old people or students. It's a lesson in how to manage on next to nothing," said Mr Deroussent.
"Cooking is highly important in the everyday life of prisons. ... It allows prisoners to dream, to escape a little."
Yes, but not too much we'd caution.
* Marc Veyrat
** l'Auberge de l'Ill
LOL, Damian. Enjoyed your post. A little humor on Saturday. Nice.
nice post :)
the figures are quite weird by the way. it would be interesting to know what is considered as fast food here, because sandwiches bought in boulangeries are still much more usual than burgers in France. $3.4 billions seems quite a small figure (USA: $11O billions), it probably takes into account only fast food restaurants (not boulangeries).
did you know that we have a special burger made only for the French market in our McDos? It's called Mc Deluxe :))
and in winter during a month all the French McDos sell burgers with a bunch of smelly French cheeses inside!
M. Goldsoundz,
Can you send some links for French McDo and fast food sites. I read several places how France "Frenchifies" chains but could find no French sites. Considering my French is nugatory, not too surprising.
Thanks,
DGB
Well, there are few fast food chains in France. Mc Donald's (French website) is by far the most important. Only Quick (French website - there's also an English version) has the same national notoriety.
There are very few KFC, most of them in Paris (no French website). Very very few Subway restaurants. And there are no Burger King (it closed in the late 90's).
Some French equivalents (but without burgers - they mainly sell sandwiches and pastries) are Pomme de Pain, Brioche Dorée, and Paul.
You can find information about the French fast foods here:
- http://lescahiersduburger.free.fr: compares the burgers avaible in France in the various chains (in French only)
- http://matsuda.9online.fr/france/quick/quick.html a site (in English!) with some critics of the Quick burgers
And in France, you can have a beer in Mc Donald's. And we don't call a quarter pounder with cheese "a quarter pounder with cheese". It's called "Royal with cheese". I guess you know why... :)
goldsoundz
Considering your history with royals it seems counter intuitive to name quarterpounders, Royals.
Why not call it the hectogram?
Hectogramme avec du fromage si vous svp.
Avec une grande grande tranche de fromage stinky svp. ;)
oh and a bag of freedom fries with that
I can't find a link, but I am sure that I read somewhere recently that, in fact, the Burger King franchises here (there were only a few - I actually ate in one once in Nancy - is it closed?) were all bought out by the French owner of McDonald's franchises to avoid competing with his own Mickey D restaurants.
Btw, as I was looking in the Yellow Pages just now for the BK in Nancy, I did come a cross a restaurant called 'Le Cul de Poule'. Shall I translate? The Chicken's B*tt. ;) But, I asked He Who Never Obeys Me and he assured me that, in fact, the name refers to a special type of cooking pot! Another resto is called Made In France. And yet another called M et Mme Patate -Mr and Mrs Potato!
Never got so much fun out of the Yellow Pages before...
you guys are amazing...
You spit at french wines , cuisine, whereas your soldiers torture in Irak.
The gap is so huge that it become ridiculous.
Wake up guys.
Marc
Our soldiers are correcting this so called torture. Here is an account from a Jag officer (military lawyer) stationed in Iraq. In it you see that reprimands are not only being dealt to lowly enlisted men(the ones posing and taking pictures) but also to their officers who allowed these incidents to occur.
Any word on French troops being prosecuted for murdering and driving Caoco farmers off their land in Coute D'Ivorie?
Marx, what in the world does Iraq have to do with French cuisine? Well I guess you all use lots of Iraqi oil in your cooking. Maybe that was the reason you all were so fired up to keep the status quo.
BTW I actually had the chance to eat at a McDonalds in Paris way back in 1992. Underdone burger, water down cola, and sugary fries. Pretty much the worst McDonald's I have ever eaten. I have eaten McDonalds in 7 countries: US, Britian, France, Italy, Luxemburg (By far the best in Europe, but mayo as a fries comdiment? ew), The Netherlands, and Beligum.
And this was all possible because? American Cultural Imperialism! Absolutely. Face it frogs you all just eat it up, literally. It must gaul you that such a 'Merican product has gained a foothold in your country and continues to provide wonderful (if substandard compared to the real thing) 'Merican service.
and what, are you going to force us wearing women underwear for that?
Well, Marc, I would say that we are “torturing” the French with McDonalds.
Eat up my friends. Supersize that meal.
Speaking of Wine and torture…. Lawmakers in a “mostly Islamic Nigerian state have approved a law culling for Muslims to be whipped…. if they are caught drinking alcohol.” One would assume that means French wine as well.
Lawmakers called for Muslims to be whipped “with 80 strokes of the cane if caught drinking alcohol”.
Any of you frogs, say, marc, concerned about this “torture” or are you just concerned about the good old US torture?
PS Max, I think Marc might actually like to wear the womens panties…..
"Pretty much the worst McDonald's I have ever eaten"
I nominate Sydney, OZ for that honor, hands down. Although the Spanish food was excelent, as I recall, and the French food, adequate. I wouldn't eat at a 'McDo' in France in any case, since their seems to be great food everywhere there.
Once you French get it through your head that smoking is killing you, and you start to give it up, you will be needing wider seats on the Metro.
We are seriously losing our venom here fellas. Did everyone have a good weekend or something?
and what, are you going to force us wearing women underwear for that?
Force is not needed.
Marc:
hey, this site is called Pavefrance after all. I rather like a witty post on McDo's in France than an insulting post on the trauma of Dien Bien Phu.
The issue of torture in Iraq has nothing to do with it. You should take a look at some of the sites linked by Pavefrance if you want to know what the pro-war think and are divided about it. Very interesting. Particularly confronting LGF and The Spoons experience for instance.
papertiger:
"so-called" torture? humiliating, beating up, raping prisoners in order to break them down psychologically (and have some fun in the same time) isn't torture? didn't you heard about what Rumsfeld said the other day about the photos and videos not revealed yet?
Your comparison with French soldiers is out of the point. You may remind us than it took more than 40 years for the French officials to recognize torture was used in Algeria, but don't refer to soldiers in Ivory Coast (or Côte d'ivoire ;)) killing citizens - do you think the GIs only killed Iraqis soldiers?- or to the fact (you didn't put it ahead, but I've read it a couple of times on American websites) that Saddam used worser methods on his prisoners - and so? is it a tradition to preserve?
Many French commentators really praize the USA (the people and the officials) these days for their attitude facing the revelations on Abu Grahib. I'm pretty sure you share this attitude.
So please don't refer to such sadistic methods as "so-called torture".
BTW the original post was about fast food restaurants in France, right? cannon, I'm sorry for your bad experience in a French McDo. Maybe next time you will try French food? ;)
Wheres the blood? I don't see piles of hands chopped off. No eyes were gouged out. Humiliation is humiliation not the same thing. The best you can say is these prisoners were abused. Their feelings were hurt.
Boo Frigging Hoo.
Papertiger, I agree that what we see in the photos is hardly torture, but maybe you haven't read all the allegations yet. Sodomizing someone with a broomstick goes a bit over the "humiliation" line. True, it's not on par with drilling holes in them, or crushing their children's feet so they can hear the screams, but the term "abuse" seems a bit light for some of this stuff.
From MSNBC News
Rumsfeld said in his opening statement before the Senate Armed Services Committee that “these events occurred on my watch. As secretary of defense, I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility.” Insisting that the abuses were at the hands of very few soldiers, Rumsfeld also vowed to bring those guilty to justice and to ensure that such abuses did not happen again.
But Rumsfeld warned the committee that the worst was yet to come. He said he had looked at the full array of unedited photographs of the situation at Abu Ghraib for the first time Thursday night and found them "hard to believe."
"There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he said. "... It's going to get a good deal more terrible, I'm afraid."
Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and "acting inappropriately with a dead body." The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.
Right, their feelings were probably "hurt".
Note that US soldiers having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner aren't called rapers. She must have been consentent.
Actually I did eat "French food" at a sit down restaurant while over there. (No I don't remember what it was I ordered, so much for memorable cuisine, eh?) Got a sneering garcon (personally boy would have been a better use of the word or a couple of compound words such as ... well I'll keep this clean) as I made the effort to work through the menu with my high school french. Bah... frog food. Whatever.
Ended up sticking to sandwiches from street vendors for the rest of the time I was over there.
"Got a sneering garcon "
It took me nearly a week in Paris before I got sneered at by a Frenchman. I was beginning to think it wasn't going to happen when I was saved by a waiter at a busy coffee shop as I slowly ordered my cafe noir in my broken French while the line behind me grew.
If all you ate was sandwiches, too bad.
As for torture. Whatever. You can understand that after all the accusations made by Europeans about Guantanamo, without the slightest shred of evidence, we are a little tired of this.
Americans are naiive. We believe in human rights. We knew nothing was going on in Guantanamo because if it were, one of the naiive American soldiers would have ratted it out, as happened in Iraq. If we took the more 'sophisticated' French approach, this abuse would still be going on.
America is not perfect, we know all too well, but we honestly try to improve over time. We have an open society and the good and the bad is revealed for all to see. The thing that I find most dissapointing about the French is your willingness to accept corruption and malfeasance as a 'fact of life', to defend it and even to ridicule those who don't hold this point of view. Forgive me if another way of looking at that point of view is 'surrender' to human weakness.
What does this sophisticated attitude get you? The destruction of the UN's credibility 'Oil for Food', destruction of French Democracy's credibility TotalFinaElf, Rainbow Warrior.... It is surrender to the strong man, Saddam, Chirac, Stalin, Hitler, and you know who is lining up for his day in the Sun? Dom de Villepin. He has even said as much.
Another thing. I think that we have a more receptive audience in the Arab world than is commonly believed by Europeans. As was overheard in a coffeeshop in Damascus last April, "We have plenty of statues here in Syria too." Like it or not, this aspect of America is finding an audience there too, and IMHO is more popular than your one-sided press leads you to believe.
Al Jazeera carries the hearings into this abuse, which every Arab knows pales compared to the kind of thing that their own governments practice, never mind Saddam, and they wonder why they never see this kind of outrage there.
If it is torture, what word do you reserve for the practices of Saudi Arabia, the French in Algeria, the tender ministrations of Saddam's secret police?
I know a lot of English words, but I don't know one stronger than 'torture' to describe these kind of practices. Abuse is a bad word here, and is taken seriously. I find your efforst to re-define our language most amusing, first Bush = Hitler, then xenophobia = rascism, now abuse = torture.
This is the basis of your hatred and fear of America; its attractiveness. You have had fifty years of denial. Believing that your socialist, strong govt system works. Now you are starting to accept that freedom, Liberty, is the strong horse. Anger is the natural reaction at this phase of acceptance. Then, I predict, will come a calm acceptance and re-assessment of your world view. You thought it would bring you a kind of utopia. Like Rick in the movie Casablanca, you "were misinformed".
Here is an article from someone who says it better than I do, and has the experience to back it up. Although every American who has ever confronted a European recognizes this sentiment:
I'd moved to Central Asia to train journalists, not to strike a blow for Uncle Sam. Yet every word I uttered -- about critical thinking or the news media's responsibility to promote information above opinion -- was drowned out by the steady din of political fables and tabloidesque truths unalloyed with skepticism, nuance, or even fact.
In Central Asia, an American Professor Finds Hostility Spiked With Cynicism
Sounds a lot like Marc, Max and Zoomer.
If you want to read a thoughtfull accounting of the American point of view, please read the above article. If you want to convince me that you are right, and so prevent me from voting for Bush again, please show me where the article is wrong.
3 months ago if i had read these news about spanish cuisine i would had begun to laugh about french decadence, even in gastronomy, and to show off about how Spain international reputation is growing.
But after last elections i just don't give a fuck.
I hate my own country as they are worse than froggies.
This summer come to Barcelona and enjoy our irresistible coward gazpacho. And don't forget of our Spanish ham surrender tapas. Mmmmm, enjoy the taste of withdrawal and dishonour.
I'm moving to the states. Zapatero sucks, the socialist sucks, left wing sucks, Europe sucks.
Who cares about having world best chefs when you are living in an idiot country?
"I hate my own country as they are worse than froggies."
What is the mood in Spain now about this move?
If you are stupid socialist islamofacist EUnuch, to withdrawal from Irak and to be again under French diplomat rules is really okey.
But there are 10 million people who don't see it this way. Who are proamerican and don't accept appeasement as a way to avoid muslim terrorism.
Zapatero is really antiamerican and very irresponsable.
Left wing manipulate spanish foreign policies ignorance to his side,
During the elections they lied and manipulate to make the people think the goverment lied and that the bombs were Aznar fault for supporting Bush on Irak.
Next bomb in Spain will show the population how wrong they were, but i'm afraid in case that happens left wing will say that's still Aznar fault as he opened Pandoras' box. They are not interested in finish with terrorism, they are just interested in power in it self. That's why they are so demagogic and populist. They say what people need to hear, not what's real and good for our country.
de-programmer:
I miss the point, what is the link between this article (quite interesting, but Western Europe isn't Central Asia, even if you believe that our economies are socialist...) and the fact that you will vote for Bush?
I can accept a qualification of "abuse" instead of "torture", but you may expose your definition of torture and abuse before.
"and the fact that you will vote for Bush"
It is not a fact that I will vote for Bush. It is a fact that if I remain convinced that things are as they seem to me to be, I will vote for him. I am trying to get somebody on your side to actually attempt, with logic and facts, to argue your point of view, and to understand that Americans read this blog, and if you come across with more actual arguments, and fewer insults, you have a chance to influence their vote.
Here is a chance for you. From my point of view, the difference between Central Asia and Europe is less than you think. If you crossed out the term 'Central Asia' and replaced it with 'Western Europe', which part of the statement would then be untrue? I think that none of it would be invalidated. You would make great strides in changing my vote if you could show me why I am wrong, instead of just, as I expect, telling me that I am wrong and leaving it at that.
US troops have been clashing with Sadr's men over the past two weeks in Najaf and nearby Kufa, since taking over from Spanish troops who pulled out of Iraq last month.
This is how America responds to terrorism. That is why the jihadis are focused on attacking the 'weak horse' right now. Not to mention that when terrorists come here to the US, they have to get jobs, which cuts into their time something awful.
Sorry, link: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040510/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_shiites_sistani&cid=1514&ncid=1473
They are not interested in finish with terrorism, they are just interested in power in it self. That's why they are so demagogic and populist. They say what people need to hear, not what's real and good for our country.
Isn't that the definition of socialism? Say what people want to hear, reality be damned, in order to accrue power?
well, it's the definition of socialism you want to hear, that's quite different.
de-programmer:
if you come across with more actual arguments, and fewer insults, you have a chance to influence their vote.
is it really what you are waiting from the "cheese eating surrender monkeys"? :)
Here are some differences between Central Asia and Western Europe focusing on some aspects put ahead in the article:
- Visiting American professors are welcome in several Western Europe universities and business schools than can't be described as antiamerican places (you can check here, here, or here for instance)
- Students in universities would never be called for annual vaccinations during a
lesson (no link here, but believe me, it never occurs).
- Americans aren't seen as CIA or FBI agents :)
- You said "I think that we have a more receptive audience in the Arab world than is commonly believed by Europeans". Certainly true, but you also have a more receptive audience in Europe than is commonly believed by Americans. The European support to the USA in Afghanistan was unanimous. France was the only country to perform aerial missions with its planes along with the Americans. The support to the war against terrorism as conducted by the American govt was strong until the Iraq war. And the Europeans massively hoped that the coalition would success rapidly (whatever some medias said).
You can call Europeans dhimmis if you believe in this bullshit, but we are some weird kind of dhimmis arresting and prosecuting terrorists: here, here, here, and here are only few examples in various European countries -even in France, which has been fighting against the Islamic threat since 1995. There is no European support to islamic terrorism.
- Islam isn't the first religion in Europe! (yeah, I know, "not yet"... according to stupid demographic prospectives)
- During the Cold War, the USA were far more popular than the USSR. They are still far more popular than Russia.
- Our medias are not antiamerican. There are antiamerican opinions reported or expressed in the medias, which are systematically reported on websites dedicated to prove how Europeans betray the USA every day (this is a "tabloidesque truth"). But there are also many expressions of friendship towards the Americans. Not so eagerly reported.
My aim is not to convince you not to vote for Bush. For instance, I don't even know the programs of the candidates, especially their economic program (could you find me a good link expressing their views?).
I'm not here to say "Americans are bad", "USA=evil" or those kinds of bullshits. i'm here because this site is called "pavefrance", and because I'm French, I live in France and I love my country, and it annoyes me to know that some people only refer to us as "C.E.S.M"
well, it's the definition of socialism you want to hear, that's quite different.
Not precisely "want to hear", but "believe". It's the one that all recorded history suggests to me. Every starry-eyed, fuzzy-hearted, utopian fantasy ends in privation and misery for the benefit of a very limited few. These few traditionally have their comfort handed to them by suckers who think they'll be sharing in it. I'd welcome an example where this is not so, but still it would be the exception that proves the rule.
Welcome back, Victor.
You have been missed.
great article de-programmer.
Yet every word I uttered -- about critical thinking or the news media's responsibility to promote information above opinion -- was drowned out by the steady din of political fables and tabloidesque truths unalloyed with skepticism, nuance, or even fact.
Well, one misstatement you made is that France was the only European country to carry out air combat operations, in fact Denmark did too, and Norway provided six F16s, whether they actually saw combat, I do not recall.
Obviously, our differences are not over Afghanistan, but over Iraq, and what do you say, simply 'we didn't agree'. No reason for the disagreement, although it is coming to light that there were billions of EUROs worth of reasons.
You say that we should have left Saddam in power. This is racist clap-trap. You say that there were 'other methods' to deal with Saddam, yet your govt corrupted the sanctions program that was in place, eliminating the one option short of war that the west had to deal with Saddam.
You say that he was not involved with terrorism, yet evidence of contacts with bin Laden is coming out of the Iraqi secret police archives. Al Qaeda front companies were getting Oil for Food money before 9-11, Why haven't you heard this? Because your press is one sided. Shouldn't you hear both sides of the issue and be trusted to decide correctly for themselves?
You show me the article in the French press where either of the above issues was discussed. Otherwise, don't tell me that you have a free press and freely decided to oppose the war after getting all of the information.
Some of the things I see on this site coming out of French mouths, "Bush killed Kyoto" for instance, are completely laughable. I admit that I assume that you are getting disinformation like this from your media, which is apparently feeding you opinion, rather than information.
Look at the progress of the ground war. Did you follow it completely in the French press? Were you surprised by the outcome and how quickly it ended? I wasn't, I watched in on Fox News, who got it right. You got opinion, we got information.
Did you notice the feeling of distress in the French media when Saddam was captured? Probably not because you were disappointed yourself. We got information, you got opinion.
Are you convinced that Fallujah is out of control and the rebels have won? Well it is not and they havn't. We can talk about it if you like. Once again you are getting opinion rather than facts.
Do you think that Najaf is out of control? It's not, no matter what your press says. Opinion verses infomation.
Now, Europe catches us out one time on prisoner abuse and your press gets so excited. Did you ever wonder what it would act like if they ever found proof of any of the other claims that they make all the time about the US.
Was there ever torture at Guantanamo? Or was that opinion in the European press over actual information.
And besides, I call you Cheese Stealing Surrender Monkeys, in light of the involvement of Chirac's cronies in the Oil for Food fraud.
You Europeans even blame us for the weather.
"Zee sun! Eet eez going down again!"
"Damn it, what have dose Murkins done to it dis time!?"
You Europeans even blame us for the weather.
I confess I cursed de-programmer the other day when it started pouring rain coming out of the shopping center with my arms full of heavy shopping bags and I could not find my car...
Victor
I am so glad you came back. We both have reasons to feel ashamed of our governments now. So don't let it drag you down. No country is perfect. And this brings me to the crux of what I want to say.
Goldsoundz
In my last post I dismissed the abuse of the prisoners. This must show that if I were in the same situation as these prison guards I could be an abuser also. I wish it were not so
Let me describe the details of the prison guards situation. They are reservist troops on extended duty. They are trained guards, but due to ill conceived planning by the Pentagon they are ordered to act as intelligence officers.
The Pentagon sent the commanding general from Guantanamo to establish protocols for handling troops in Iraq.
Guantanamo Bay commander Maj Gen Miller gave recommendations for speeding up the interrogation process at Abu Ghraib which were presented to the top commander in Iraq, Brigadier General Ricardo S. Sanchez. In part they stated, " … it is essential that the guard force be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees."
In effect this put the guards in a subordinate position to Military Intelligence. Intel tasked prison guards "to set the conditions for intelligence gathering."
For example the officer of the guard was ordered by Intel to keep certain prisoners from sleeping for extended periods of time, to soften them up for interrogation. The officer objected, "our people have not been trained to do that, and if I order eighteen year olds to keep prisoners from sleeping without instruction on how to do it, they are bound to get creative."
I believe the naked hooded prisoners are examples of the eighteen year old guards creativity, when given an ambiguous order.
How would you or I deal with an order to keep a prisoner from sleeping 24 hours? We have just as much training as those troops do on this subject.
Would you hand cuff them in a standing position? Would you splash them with water when the prisoners started to nod off? Would you make them stand on a box so that if they started to drift off they would fall and wake themselves?
The order to have prison guards serving intel officers is the problem.
This order gave creative licence to untrained soldiers to treat prisoners as they liked. If a soldier is given licence to abuse prisoners it is a very rare person that wouldn't eventually do something that is morally repugnant.
We Americans are at a slippery spot. As a country, due to our economic muscle and military might, we are approaching a position of licence in dealing with the rest of the world. This is a serious problem, for while I believe that promotion of liberal democracy in the middle east is a noble goal which justified the overthrow of Saddam, it is just as likely that our country could be steered toward ignoble goals.
It is good that we have France objecting to our foreign policy. If Jacque had not objected, do you think we might be marching on Damascus or Tehran? Maybe, maybe not. Of course as a country, America doesn't have licence to act as we will.
French objections are born of cynical monetary interests and war profiteering by a few in the higher offices of government, but that government was voted in by a friend. Our friends message, don't drive so fast or you will wreck.
Thats a good message for a superpower to hear, I think.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Sections/News/International%20News/Mideast%20and%20N.%20Africa/Iraq%20conflict/Red%20Cross%20report.pdf
Degenerates... The world is seeing your true faces of cowards, thiefs and bullies.
Keep talking cuisine while your own relatives are torturing innocent and defenseless people. Despicable people.
I just wonder why there are so much noise about USA tortures when Saddam has been torturing for years, and when i say torturing i mean real medieval tortures, those when people die.
Why Sharon has been blamed for corruption (something that still must be prooved) in all European Media when Arafat is in Forbes List and his wife is a special client in Vendome place?
I think its' good the fact that we eliminate those corrupt elements and those authority abuses in our democracies, but the real intention of European media about the USA tortures and israel antiterrorist fight is very different.
They wanna damage their reputation, they wanna show them as the real danger to democracy.
Basically because specially in France and Spain all media are very antiamerican and antisemite.
How it's posible that after all the damage socialism made in bouth countries people are still unable to react and change their minds?
Cos media are plenty of politically correct left wing morons.
So stupid, so true.
"While the second issue directly involves U.S. policy, the environmental concerns raised by this year's disastrous floods in the East also have an American policy component. (Actually, it seems that every international issue raised in conversation here concerns the United States in some way.)
Many people attribute the flooding to global climate change, and it is on this point that many Germans take issue with the United States. Germans are furious about Bush's decision to pull out of the Kyoto accord on climate change, "
http://www.indyweek.com/durham/2002-10-02/first.html
Come on zoomer, you should have known I'd have a link..:)
Notice the canard about "Bush's decision".
If you look at climatic history, you will see that global weather varies for all kinds of reasons over time scales vast and small.
You will also see that we have been coming out of a "Little Ice Age" (Google that term if you don't believe me) for the past 3 or 4 hundred years. The warming started before the industrial revolution, hmmm.
Of course I would be all for the reduction in the dependence on coal here. France has done quite well with nuclear power, and I wish the US would follow its lead. But it is your allies on the kooky left here that block nuclear power at every turn.
Victor, my barb at Spain was not directed at you. I just wanted to point out why the terrorist attack Europe nowadays, and not us. This is aimed at our frog posters since they don't seem to get this. The jihadis know it pisses us off even more, and they know we will do something about it. We will remove the govt in power found responsible. All we are waiting for with Syria and Iran is a pretext. They will put a lid on terror attacks in the US because they know that. I think that the Iraq war was perfectly defensible for this simple reason, expressed in French in our culture by the way, "Pour decourager les autres."
"The world is seeing your true faces of cowards, thiefs and bullies."
The Arab world is seeing the reality that a 100 lb female American soldier can lead a jihadi around on a dog's leash, and he is powerless to stop it. What a recruiting poster! This is a PR problem for us in Al Jazeera Land, you know Germany, France, Saudi Arabia, Palistine. But I defy you to find me a news report from the ground in Iraq that shows it has damaged us there. Opinion pieces by Westerners, and Arab News editorials do not count. I am talking about documented damage to the US reputation with non-Sunni Iraqis, which make up 80% of Iraq.
There is little doubt that this is shameful, but if this is the best you can come up with, you have severely overplayed your hand. It is not nearly as bad as their tactic of hiding among civilians because they know that it shames us to kill civilians.
Basically because specially in France and Spain all media are very antiamerican and antisemite.
lol.
A famous animator of the main news program of the main public channel is jewish....
I forgot to mention the high coverage and disgust expressed by the French Media against the recent antisemitic acts in 2 cemetaries...
Wake up Victor Bueno, you don't live in the reality...
Mr Dispicable
Your link to the international red cross is interesting.
It says most of the alleged abuses were the "hooding" prisoners, in order that they wouldn't know who is in the room with them.
Sort of like posting a slander anonymously and listing your contact information as the Whitehouse.
Thank you , Mr. Dispicable, for showing that most anybody given licence could become an abuser.
Hola Marc
Un engin explosif artisanal a été découvert vendredi soir à la synagogue de Villiers-le-Bel, après une série de profanations qui ont relancé cette semaine le débat sur l'antisémitisme en France.
http://fr.news.yahoo.com/040508/202/3sdyt.html
«C'est l'Etat d'Israël tel qu'il fonctionne depuis 1967 qui est le vecteur d'un nouvel antisémitisme», lâche l'historien Maurice Rajsfus, pour qui «ce qui est relaté comme de l'antisémitisme n'est que la réaction de jeunes rejetés de toutes parts, sans espoir et sans avenir, et qui se posent en vengeurs des Palestiniens réprimés».
Dieudonné candidat sur une liste Euro-Palestine en Ile-de-France.
Papertiger,
I doubt that you know about what you post.
In any case , your various copy-pastes have a link with the pre-supposed antisemitic French media that in fact exist in Victor's Bueno mind.
Any crime in cemetaries or Bombs attack is widely commented , showed on TV and medias.
Dieudonné is far to be representative of the general opinion. he has much hmuch much more ennemies in France than friends after he took in public some anti-semitic postitions.
The truth is that France is the country that fight most agaisnt anti-semitism. It's an example to follow, that's what the Jewish themselves tell.
I fell sorry for you that you stil ldidn't understand this basic fact : the anti-semitism acts in France comes from the arabic minority.
Recently some neo-nazi idiots showed up also. It's a different story.
In any case, France approves or encourages or even ignore these facts.
Marc
So your saying Dieudonné has no chance of winning the Presidency?
Viva le France
Degenerates... The world is seeing your true faces of cowards, thiefs and bullies.
Have you seen the video of the American civilian being beheaded today? Yeah, too bad Americans can't be more like the Muslims.
If only we would have let the frogs keep us out of Iraq then the Muslims and the frogs would not be upset about Iraqis being tortured. Nope, then photos of tortured Iraqis would not be shown about the world, and everyone would be much, much happier.
Except I think you grossly misrepresent us as thieves (or, as you say “thiefs”). That would be the UN. Thanks anyway for the thought.
Goldsoundz:
Visiting American professors are welcome in several Western Europe universities and business schools than can't be described as anti-American places
Professors OK, Presidents NO. Please see the latest post at Valerie’s e-nough. Boy, goldsoundz, just when you were starting to get me going there about frogs not being anti-American.
stupid socialist islamofacist EUnuch
Always nice to have the Spaniards around. Like I said, Victor, you were missed!
When one is completely steeped in anti-Americanism, it is very likely that that person would be unaware of it.
BTW: Kerry is a protectionist
"John Kerry has worked to make sure that farmers have the support they need"
"He supports truth in labeling and country of origin labeling, which gives consumers the information they need to support American farmers."
Kerry's own web site
Sound like something that France will like?
Viva le France
"Vive La France", Papertiger ;-)
To Marc Levis. You mean there are no antisemitism and antiamericanism in french media?
Ok, Marc. Some of the comics and articles i saw in Le Monde or Liberation could easily be in any arab newspaper.
In fact to give coverage to someone like Dioudenne is an evidence in it self.
And what about "La guerre a outrances". Please don't tell me this things are in my mind. I can read your antiamerican shit everyday in Merde in France or the dissident frogman.
Any OUTRAGE in the frog press about the beheaded American?
Any PHOTOS of the beheaded American plastered all over the frog press?
Any Muslim leaders denouncing, once again, these despicable Muslim actions?
When the frogs are in the streets protesting against Bush’s visit to Paris, what will be the ratio of protesters holding signs of the tortured Iraqis compared to the number of protesters that will be holding signs of the beheaded American civilian?
Marc, how about you? I ask YOU again frog, do you want to talk about torture OR JUST AMERICAN torture? Yeah, froggie marc, time for YOU to f**king wake up.
Libération -
American JEW beheaded in Iraq story on page six
(in the side bar) (( scroll down a bit )) (((there are 6 other news items apparently just as important to share with the people of France))))
Also in this edition of Libération
stories on American abuses of prisoners 22 pages of stories (mostly commentary and cartoons one of which portrays a US military GI jerking off in the face of hooded Iraqis)((can't believe the French allow charactures to perform sex acts in newspapers that are going to be dilivered on peoples door steps))
Anti-semetism and Anti-Americanism. lucky frogs get two for the price of one Phili kid's head.
Interesting that Koranimals, which Frogs profess to have great influence with, are not being chastised.
You have zero influence with American Jews, and yet you spend all of your ''A'' section trying.
Is this not stupidity?
See Marc? It's not necessary to say anything else after what andy and Papertiger explained, isn't it?
Or it's me who is still living in reality?
It appears that a**hole marc has again disappeared. He was gone for 4 or 5 months, and then came back sniffing around like a fu**ing poodle in heat when he smelled the Iraq prison mess. But as usual, his mental capacities are not strong enough for him to come up with any arguments, so he will fade away again.
Good riddance to a piece of f**k frog.
Victor: Article about your troops here. Valerie had linked to this at e-nough, thought you might like to read it.
While all of the soldiers interviewed said they were relieved to be home and out of the harrowing dangers of serving in Iraq, most of them -- even some originally opposed to the war -- also expressed regret over Zapatero's decision. They said they were forced to abandon what they felt was a useful humanitarian mission.
Anti-semetism and Anti-Americanism. lucky frogs get two for the price of one Phili kid's head
Ah yes... the word "Jew" was used, therefore... Simplistic to the core. The article mentioned the fact he was "Jewish", drawing a parallel to the Daniel Pearl (also Jewish) execution, possibly from the same killer. There's nothing "anti-semite" there.
Zoomer
It isn't the script of the Berg story, but rather the placement which is telling. Also the ponderous heap of french birdcage liner devoted to Abu Griad.
Check for conditions in your own prisons filled with muslims. Check
DO a google search and see if French guards use humiliation to control unruly prison populations.
I am willing to bet there isn't 20 plus pages total from today all the way back to medival times, written about the condition of Muslims in French prisons.
DO a google search and see if French guards use humiliation to control unruly prison populations.
Come on, papertiger, I don't think French prisons are any worse than many US prisons, both have a system of law, that's just a gratuitous comment on your part. You mention "unruly", hence "crowd control", if there are instances of brutality then so be it, prisons are not summer camps. The fact is, the humiliation of Iraki prisonners had nothing to do with "unruly" prisoners (most were just rounded up without charges). This shit is in your camp and you just can't admit it.
I have some guilt, this is true.
It is a sad thing for me to see naked iraqi men led around on a leash by an american woman. It is humiliating. It is un necessary. It is the sort of thing that will have the next generation of Iraqis writing anti american editorials in their newspapers. They won't remember that the men in these pictures were responsable for beheadings, widespread poverty, and dispair.
THey wont remember that their own fathers had to sell off all their furniture and work three jobs just to put bread on the floor to feed the family when saddam was the king. They won't look around their apartment with the computer in the corner and the TV satellite dish and the refridgerator and the air conditioner and their children driving themselves to college in the new car. All they will see is a girl with a leash leading an Iraqi prisoner around helplessly naked and shameful.
You know what. That picture of the bag on the naked Iraqi guys head and Lyndie England pointing at the guys pecker with a smile and a chuckle at their predicament. If thats the only thing that an Iraqi from the next generation(which will be born into a free society) remembers from the war on terror so be it.
Even you French must notice the injustices of these islamic fascists disguised as holy men. They force their women to wear bags their whole life.
Let them remember when the American girl came to them and turned the table.
Those future Iraqis will no doubt treat americans harshly and deride us in their papers and refuse our planes to fly over their airspace.
But we still talk with the French in very simular circumstances. I can live with that.
(most were just rounded up without charges)
Proof of that, frog breath? Making shit up again to support your arguments, eh frog fu*k?
Fuck off andy,
It is now widely reported that most prisoners had nothing to do with Al Quaeda or where detained just because of of vague Ba'ath party afiliations which led to overcrowded prisons, even the US aknowlegdes that.
Listen moron, I don't have a problem with the US army rounding up and jailing suspects, even torturing a few if necessary, understand? I do not think the whole army should be held responsable.
On the other hand, this pornographic freak circus you created is unacceptable. You reap what you sew. Don't pontificate you fucking "moral" values on everyone and act like perverted idiots and whine because the foreign press picks up on it. I say good for you.
Fuck off andy
Same to you f**kerx.
Oh, yeah, right, f**kface, I forgot. Al Q has nothing to do with Iraq. Wake up frog.
I do not think the whole army should be held responsible.
So then why do you blame all by saying freak circus you created. Use of “you” is blaming all, froggie.
Speaking of “pontification”, tell me again, frogfu*k just how concerned you were about torture in Iraq was ruled by Saddam? I must have missed that part of the story. Are you concerned about prison torture throughout the Arab world, or only interested in these pictures because of the porn quality?
Oh, yeah, right, f**kface, I forgot. Al Q has nothing to do with Iraq. Wake up frog.
Now it does, asshole! Is your bitch Saudi Arabia also on your list of "evildoers"? It should be, but you need the oil, eh?
So then why do you blame all by saying freak circus you created. Use of “you” is blaming all, froggie.
OK, "those responsible". Feel better now?
Speaking of “pontification”, tell me again, frogfu*k just how concerned you were about torture in Iraq was ruled by Saddam?
Ah yes of course, now it's all about "torture under Saddam" now you can't find any weapons... Do you know who propped him up in the first place? Did you (or France or the UK) say a word while he was gasing the Kurds around the time when the US was backing him up? Do you really beleive Rumsfeld knew nothing when he shook hands with Saddam? Don't play that hypocritical shit on me.
"Now it does, asshole"
The guy who cut off Berg's head was in Iraq prior to the war. In fact, if I recall correctly, he was wounded in Afghanistan fighting with bin Laden and Iraq gave him hospital care. Why did he think to go to Iraq?
"Do you really beleive Rumsfeld knew nothing when he shook hands with Saddam?"
How does a handshake outweigh selling Saddam a nuclear reactor capable of supplying weapons-grade plutonium? Saddam was a head of state at the time. He was also the enemy of our enemy.
The guy who cut off Berg's head was in Iraq prior to the war.
Yes, and Spain, Germany, Jordan, Pakistan etc... Al Quaeda did not have a significant following in Irak the way it had in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
It appears that a**hole marc has again disappeared. He was gone for 4 or 5 months, and then came back sniffing around like a fu**ing poodle in heat when he smelled the Iraq prison mess. But as usual, his mental capacities are not strong enough for him to come up with any arguments, so he will fade away again.
Good riddance to a piece of f**k frog.
Don't dream so much andy, I'm there, in the shadow..
I came back to see, after some time ,if there are still some stupid guys to consider France as ennemy, instead of Extremist Muslims.
Apparently such people still exist.
But they become more and more nervous I see? using bad words, isn't it andy?
This nervosity amongst US defenders, isn't it a proof that something is wrong for America ?
Poor guys. You may be prepare yourself to have a lot of nightmares.
All this story in Iraq will have a bloody end, and your country will subit the consequences.
I'm sad for you.
Thank you Chirac, that you kept France out of this mess.
Now we are perverted idiots?
Let me remind you
and this
And somore
and on and on
These are all your medias, not ours.
He was also the enemy of our enemy.
He was the same bloody dictator, and you supplied him with chemicals among other things. Proof that nations always act out of self-interest, even the USA.
These are all your medias, not ours.
Your media never, ever have tasteless cartoons? The French cartoon you provide actually asks a fair question. In another angle, does the showing of abuses play in the hands of those fanatics? I say yes, but you shot yourself in the foot this time. Fair?
I don't know about how much of Iraqs chemical weapons were supplied by the USA , but it seems that Iranians know who the culprit was.
Can you read German, or should I give you the English version? OK, English then Tehran to unveil plaque denouncing Germany's supply of chemical weapons during 1980s
Go ahead and bask in your voyeurism. Just don't pretend it has something to do with jounalistic integrity.
Don't play that hypocritical shit on me.
again I ask you fu*king little frog what was the position of France on the torutue in Iraq before the war. As long as you were getting payoffs, what did you care? Again, I ask you about torture in the Middle East. Do you care? Of course not you fuc**ng little piece of Sh**. You only care if America is involved. Fuc*face.
You hypocritical fu**ing assho**.
Take a breath andy. count to three.
What's with the ****, andy?
again I ask you fu*king little frog what was the position of France on the torutue in Iraq before the war.
Again, retard, I'm telling you that neither France, nor the US, gave a damn about it, did they? I would have had a lot more respect for you if the US invaded Irak strictly on humanitarian grounds, but it was about something else.
There are many nations where torture is common, including some allies of yours. Christians are being slaughtered in Niger and in Sudan as we speak, do you give a fuck, andy? Do you even know about it? Don't blame me because there are no WMD to be found or some of your troops are acting like perverted teenagers, moron. You do remember the WMD issue, do you?
I don't know about how much of Iraqs chemical weapons were supplied by the USA , but it seems that Iranians know who the culprit was.
The US did, along with computers and helicopters. Much of Irak's modern infrastructure was built by Germany. I don't have a problem with your link.
Oh I see. The Iranians are complaining of the roadwork that made it possible for Saddams men to deliver the US supplied chemical weapons.
Lucky I have you to point out the nuances of the Iranian condemnation.
Uh? I'm just pointing out to you some additional info, that's all.
Al Quaeda did not have a significant following in Irak the way it had in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
True, but it had a sugar daddy there. Yes, past tense - "had". You're welcome.
Your media never, ever have tasteless cartoons?
You mean almost daily, like French papers? No. Even when one does occasionally appear, it does not compare with the likes of this. That's pure modele francais, so classy. Maybe our pornographic magazines could compete, I'm not sure.
Christians are being slaughtered in Niger and in Sudan as we speak, do you give a f**k, andy? Do you even know about it?
WOW, really? Why I think its horrible people are being killed. Well, it MUST be the fault of BUSH. Can’t we protest and call BUSH HITLER or something?
Hey, is there really a country called Nigeria? Isn’t that word, you know, like, racist or something? Gee, I think it’s really insensitive that they would name a country that. I mean, like, do black people live there? Wow, they must feel really bad having to live in a racist place like that. Hey, maybe, like, that’s why they are killing each other! Is that Bush’s fault too, because, you know, he is a racist. I bet it is.
And they are killing people there? Like, you know, wow, can’t we do something, like, you know, pass a resolution at the UN to condemn them killing each other, or you know, whatever? Won’t that stop it?
Let me look in the paper and see if I can find anything on that, you know, country. Nothing, like, on page 1, just stories about those awful prison pictures. Wow, like, page 2, page3, all the way to page 14 nothing but stuff about the prison. Gee, and this French guy says they are killing people, you know, in that country (sorry, I forgot the name). Oh yeah, that racist sounding place.
Ok, let me see about this story. “Hundreds of people, mostly Christians, have been burned and hacked to death”. Wow, like, you know, that must, you know, hurt. Damn BUSH for letting that happen. He’s a racist you know.
Hey, wait, look, you know at this: “reprisal attack for the slaying of hundreds of Muslims”. Wow, that French guy only said Christians were being killed. I, you know, think its awful that he, you know, didn’t consider the, you know, hurting and stuff that happened to the Muslims, cuz, you know, like, at school and stuff, they say we should, you know, be feeling and stuff toward everybody. So, like, its racist and stuff for that French guy not to mention, you know, Muslims too. Do you know that BUSH is racist?
Hey, this article says “…fighting across the oil-exporting country”. There is oil in Nigeria? WOW!! I bet the US CIA is causing all the problems in that country so then, like, you know, BUSH can go in and steal the OIL!!!! Don’t we need, you know, like Frances help or something?
Well, it MUST be the fault of BUSH. Can’t we protest and call BUSH HITLER or something?
There you go again talking out of your ass.
Did I ever implied Bush or the US was responsible for the Niger and Sudan atocities? My point is that nations "deliver" the nations they want to "deliver", and when it's convenient, cynical but true. You're in Irak now, finish your job and come home soon. But don't act like Mother Theresa or Joan Of Arc when your only purpose to be there was to find WMD. You remember that, don't you?
Hey, is there really a country called Nigeria? Isn’t that word, you know, like, racist or something?
I meant Niger, but as a matter of fact there is, andy. It's in Africa, you know, where "coloured people" live.
There you go again talking out of your ass.
LOL here!
Zoomer, my post above was in jest. I am fully aware of the fact there is a Niger and Nigeria.
Your statement of Do you even know about it? seemed condescending, reeking of “of course he doesn’t know, he’s American” that the whole response is that of the “stupid American”, someone who would NOT know the difference between Nigeria and Niger. Of course, I made my stupid American a uninformed liberal Bush hater.
I thought it was painfully obvious, but sometimes these things work, sometimes they don’t.
But don't act like Mother Theresa or Joan Of Arc when your only purpose to be there was to find WMD.
And thank you for stalling us long enough for Saddam to abscond with the goods. We were also there to find terrorists. Found a bunch. Don't forget that either.
We also uncovered a Libyan plot to make WMD. So we did find some. Don't forget that too.
Now we have the whole of the ME where Saddam might have sent his, and that is due to a few phone calls from your boy Chirac. Don't forget that either.
Your paltry superficial assistance in hunting terrorists along with your non assistance in the prosecution of the ones we already caught is duely noted.
No andy, I may get carried away sometimes but I don't put all Americans in the same bag.
And thank you for stalling us long enough for Saddam to abscond with the goods. We were also there to find terrorists. Found a bunch. Don't forget that either.
You found a lot of foreign fighters financed by Al Quaeda and Iran and lots of local resistance. French resistants were also labeled as "terrorists" by the Germans and dealt with "accordingly". Watch for Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. That butcher who killed an US citizen is from Jordan. You're doing what you can in Irak but faning the flames of terrorism worldwide I'm afraid.
We also uncovered a Libyan plot to make WMD. So we did find some. Don't forget that too.
That's Lybia and they came to you, but that's a good thing (and there's lots of oil there, good for you ;-). The big one however is North Korea (and they only have potatoes to offer).
Now we have the whole of the ME where Saddam might have sent his, and that is due to a few phone calls from your boy Chirac. Don't forget that either.
Link? I don't beleive there is love lost between the two.
Your paltry superficial assistance in hunting terrorists along with your non assistance in the prosecution of the ones we already caught is duely noted.
Ah... Ann Coulter. The bashing Nazi.
"Superficial assistance"... not true at all. What is France doing in Afghanistan looking for Bin Laden and paying for the training of Afghan officers for? Again, you assume terrorism is all new to France. We've gone after Al Quaeda cells even before 9/11 and continue to do so, in fact, Intelligence is one area where both the US and France have been cooperating well.
And what about Germany who just released a major 9/11 suspect because of not enough evidence by the way? Does Ann Coulter have anything to scream about this?
French President Jacques Chirac's special relationship with Saddam Hussein goes back almost 30 years. As the French Prime Minister in 1974, Chirac was instrumental in boosting France's diplomatic and economic ties with oil-rich Iraq. Chirac called Saddam Hussein "a personal friend" after Chirac and Hussein finalized the agreement for the construction of a French-built nuclear reactor near Baghdad; the reactor that was later bombed by Israel.
And here is an example of how wrong we were:
one U.S. intelligence expert somewhat facetiously put it, "France will jump on board with the U.S. the minute their agents in Baghdad get done shredding all evidence of their illicit arms sales to Iraq."
What he should have said was, "as soon as they get done shredding all evidence of their illicit oil deals under the UN"
French President Jacques Chirac's special relationship with Saddam Hussein goes back almost 30 years. As the French Prime Minister in 1974, Chirac was instrumental in boosting France's diplomatic and economic ties with oil-rich Iraq. Chirac called Saddam Hussein "a personal friend" after Chirac and Hussein finalized the agreement for the construction of a French-built nuclear reactor near Baghdad; the reactor that was later bombed by Israel.
1974. Enough said.
Should we go over the list of dubious dictators the US cozzied up to in the 197o's or are you hopelessly naive?
"1974. Enough said."
It seems to me that the frogs here have no problem posting articles that date to the '60s and '50s that shed a bad light on the US.
Since you claim that this has changed, you tell me how Chirac's actions leading up to the war would have been different if he did still consider Saddam a 'personal friend'. It looks, from this side of the pond, that nothing has changed.
Your reversion to name-calling speaks of desperation too.
At what point exactly, since 1974, did Chirac break with Saddam? When did he take concrete action in this direction.
It seems to me that the frogs here have no problem posting articles that date to the '60s and '50s that shed a bad light on the US.
You just have a tendency to forget your own past actions when you point the finger at the French. It's important to put things in context.
If we had to highlight words that head of states said to other foreign leaders and later regretted, or did not actually mean ... Of course, none of that could ever have happened to an American head of state while meeting with foreign dictators in the past. Ever. No, no, no, not us!
Sorry my first paragraph was not supposed to be italicized.
And de-programmer... before of accusing Chirac calling Saddam a "personal friend" decades ago, here's an absolute gem you probably did not know about. Something tells me this was not big news in the US while the Chirac/Saddam 1974 handshake was... The hypocrisy is almost laughable.
Can't wait to see Michael Moore's new flick.
Funny thing. Michigan is full of Arabs, many ex Iraqis. Local officials, mayors, etc, are independent of control by other govts. They do things like declare nuclear free zones, pretending that they can keep nuclear subs and weapons out of their harbors. Yada yada yada. By the way, the "Key to the city" does not actually open anything. I am not sure you knew that since you seem to take this story so seriously.
I am sure you cant wait to see his new flick. How about a challenge for you. You tell us things you learned in his last flick, and we will tell you, with proof, whether they are true or not.
This is the best quote about Moore I have seen so far:
"But speaking here in my capacity as a polished, sophisticated European as well, it seems to me the laugh here is on the polished, sophisticated Europeans. They think Americans are fat, vulgar, greedy, stupid, ambitious and ignorant and so on. And they've taken as their own, as their representative American, someone who actually embodies all of those qualities." - Christopher Hitchens
I am not sure you knew that since you seem to take this story so seriously.
I'm curious, did you know about this story before I posted it? To me it's just as irrelevant as Chirac seen with Saddam in 1974, which was seen all over the US news and is a favorite of French-bashers. There's a bit of hypocrisy here.
By the way, the "Key to the city" does not actually open anything.
It's an honor reserved to "special guests", isn't it? By the way, was the Mayor of Detroit an Arab? Do you think any Arab head of state can enter the US without his background known by the FBI? Do you really beleive the US knew nothing about him? Give me a break.
Turning heads "the other way" or convieniently ignoring some tyran's true nature is a little gane that's been played for centuries, btw, it's part of diplomacy when its suits a nation's interests. It just seems to me many Americans here are either hypocritical (something you're often accused of) or just born yesterday.
You are taking the actions of local politicians waaay too seriously. You don't understand our political system. Why would I have heard of this. It is utterly unremarkable. It was only important to the voters in Detroit, who are the only ones who had any say in it. You compare the Key to the City to enabling a nuclear program? You compare it to your HEAD OF STATE calling Saddam a "personal friend". You just look silly on this one. Every time I get ready to give you credit for brains, you come up with something like this. Stop embarrasing yourself.
You don't understand our political system.
You don't understand international diplomacy and self-interests. You're either extremely naive or hypocritical. Maybe both.
You compare it to your HEAD OF STATE calling Saddam a "personal friend".
Yes I do. I'm only pointing out at your hypocrisy. Chirac calling Saddam a "personal friend" 25 years ago or Saddam being given the royal treatment in Detroit in 1980 are both irrelevant, they show however a willingness to suit one's self-interests. I wish I had tapes of US officials (and presidents) conversing with dictators and corrupted head of states in the past decades, it would be just as easy to dig up embarrasing statements. I asked you before: Do you really beleive that the FBI in 1980 was clueless about who Saddam really was? We all look the other way when its convenient, France does it, and certainly the US. Don't be so naive.
I could accept your argument completely if Chiraq had not given Saddam nuclear technology at the time and if he had not stood by Saddam until the bitter end, and even a little beyond.
After my 'personal friend' remark cancels out your 'Rumsfeld handshake' you then have the physical gifts. A "key to the city" vs. a nuclear reactor. Then, Chiraq's support of Saddam is canceled out by what? US sales of pesticides to Iraq? They were chemical weapons to the left then, now they are just bug spray.
You lose this argument. Calling me 'naive', while giving you that little frisson of superiority that you crave, does not change the real facts. Chiraq has supported Saddam in material ways that far outweigh any support the US is known to have provided him.
If you want to make charges of US support of Saddam, please provide specific links to actual events, not opinions. Otherwise, I may conclude that you are naively accepting whatever propaganda your masters and betters are providing without examination. We both know that that can't be true. ;·)
Why don't I know that can't be true?
