Not only are they hardly our friends, they are more than happy to inflame our enemies against us. (from Le Monde)

"they are more than happy to inflame our enemies against us"

ahah, you're naive Krempaski, it's so cute.
little tip: your enemies are already inflame against you, just because...they are enemies.

First, it's KrempaskY.

Fine - to be more specific, how kind of the French to paint our country (and our president) as a racist bunch of rednecks who hate Muslims for being Muslims when the truth is far from it.

Of course, it's all Bush's fault:

Au lieu de s'en tenir, après le 11 septembre 2001, à une lutte patiente et déterminée contre Oussama Ben Laden, Al-Qaida, ses séides et ses métastases, en Afghanistan et ailleurs - objectif approuvé par toutes les démocraties -, Washington a préféré se lancer dans l'aventure irakienne.

So what France wants is to hand over power in Iraq to those who would rule by terror, like Saddam did, but who are corruptable, er I mean amanable to Old Europe's values. Or the corrupt UN, in a pinch, where veto's fetch a high price on the open market.

These are the guys who want to run the Middle East. Once they have succeeded there, they want to run Europe.

Here is a picture that your press seems to have deprived you of. Enjoy it, an American gets what's coming to him.

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article6172.htm

Sorry, I forgot the link to Le Monde

Oops again, that's amenable, not amanable.

But wait - I thought that al-Zarqawi was actually dead, and the US was just using him to justify the war? Darn it, I can't keep the lies straight anymore.

Wow, a politically incorrect cartoon? Outrageous!

(That particular one is not very funny I concede)

German News knowingly shows faked injuries and a faked story about American torture

They never mention that the 'injured' man was proven to be a fraud, and that Iraqis surrounding him pointed it out. This is what you Europeans call news. I call it agitprop, intended to create a unified point of view to make you easier to govern. But that's just me. No its not, its a lot of us, including a fair number of Europeans with IQs above room temperature.

Sorry, I give up on the hot links. Here is is:
http://timblair.spleenville.com/archives/006726.php

I wish I had gotten a screen shot now, but the earlier headline from Le Monde was "Americans shocked by ..." or something like it, not "World shocked". After all, it was just an American, and the French are our friends.

I have to get the following through my thick skull:

"They were not acting out of self interest. Who could blame them for taking billions of dollars to undermine the sanctions? Sanctions never work, and the money was just lying there."

"France only wants the best for America and is saddened to see us make a mistake"

"We sympathized with you on Sept 11".

Yada yada yada. I was just getting back to drinking Grey Goose vodka again too. Oh well Svensk and Svedka are pretty good.

Here is a good image: http://www.fador.org/wtc/trapped.jpg

I hope none of these people were humiliated or subjected to intense psycological pressure. After all, Al Qaeda has decided that such a crime requires beheading. But of course Al Qaeda has nothing to do with Iraq, and Iraq has nothing to do with the war on terror.

Tell me Frenchmen, are you guys proud of your 'free press' today?

You frogs are really something. Just really, fu*king something. I don't know what makes me sicker... the photos (both sides) or you frogs.

Wait, I do know. It's you frogs. You all make me want to vomit.

Do you know what I would love to see? I would LOVE it if when Bush is in Paris if he SPITS right in F*cking Jacks face. I would love it.

I would love to SPIT in a frogs face right NOW.

You frogs......go to He**.

Now now, lets not be consigning anybody to H*E* double hockysticks.

Here is the thing, the bread and butter Frenchman doesn't have a hand in the French government's policy. \
Spending any amount of time here, at Merde, or Frogman, makes it plain that the population get Chriac's version of the story from cradle to grave with variations swiftly squelched.
Their elections are between bad (Chirac)and worse(LePen).

Our country is approaching singular power on the planet,and we all know that absolute power corrupts absolutely. If the French government gave us a rubber stamp endorcement would we strive to clean our image toward the world? Or would we instead bang a steady beat on the war drum, totally abandoning the better angels of our nature?

France serves a purpose. We need someone challengeing our ideals, if we are to live up to them.

Once they have succeeded there, they want to run Europe.

Hey, great idea. Tell the terrorists to leave Iraq and go to France! After all, frogland has lost it's appeal as a vacation spot anyway, so what use is there for it? This solves all of our problems at once. After all, frogs, those “sons of Allah” aren’t that bad, are they? That’s what you keep telling us.

I wish I had gotten a screen shot now, but the earlier headline from Le Monde was "Americans shocked by ..." or something like it, not "World shocked". After all, it was just an American, and the French are our friends.

Uh... The news was about America's reaction... Never mind Le Monde has called the murder "odious" or called the Irak / Vietnam comparaison wrong, a few weeks ago after Ted Kennedy made the remark.

After all, frogland has lost it's appeal as a vacation spot anyway

Fact or wishful thinking? Tourism is down everywhere, including in the US from abroad.

Wait, I do know. It's you frogs. You all make me want to vomit.

Perhaps you may want to vomit at this first, andy, before blaming the messenger (guilty of printing a bad cartoon, I admit):

I saw cruel, sadistic torture," said Rep. Jane Harman, D-Calif., who said some of the images were of male prisoners masturbating. She said she saw a man hitting himself against a wall as though to knock himself unconscious.

Others said they saw images of corpses, military dogs snarling at cowering prisoners, women commanded to expose their breasts and sex acts, including forced homosexual sex.

"There were people who were forced to have sex with each other," said Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-N.Y.

Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., said, "There were some pictures where it looked like a prisoner was sodomizing himself" with an object. He said blood was visible in the photograph.

Hey All,
I AM BACK! YEP. Wedding was on the 17th of April, here in Hawaii where I have since departed for with my husband, Rudy the Marine!
Anyway love teh cartoon, is it Julius Streicher light? Do the French actually think they are making any friends here?
Oh and Max..since I know MK and the gang, from me to you BITE ME! They are good guys and your a fruit cake, gum on the bottom of a shoe, all we need to do is scrap you off and drop you in a storm drain...
And whats this crapola of Froggies with German names? Are they finally showing their true Vichy Roots?
Hmmm maybe we need to investigate!
Do I loathe France yes, do I give a rats hind end what happens to them? Where can I sign up to watch?

Fascinating.

A joke, enjoy......
Steff

"Sheep Fries"

There was once a sheep farmer who had a French farm hand working with him to help castrate his sheep. As
the farmer castrated the sheep, the French farm hand took the parts and was about to throw them into the
trash.

"No!" yelled the farmer, "Don't throw those away! My wife fries them up and we eat them, they're delicious!
They're called Sheep Fries!"

The farm hand saved the parts and took them to the farmer's wife who cooked them up for supper. This went
on for three days....and each evening they had Sheep Fries for supper.

On the fourth night the farmer came in to the house for supper. He asked his wife where the farm hand was and
she replied, "It's the strangest thing! When he came in and asked what was for supper, I told him French Fries
and he ran like hell!"

I saw a drunk beating his head against the window of a patrol car once. That didn't make it a case of police brutality.
Show me a prisoner who doesn't jerk off , to make the list more managable.
In fact these assertions are rather staid and ordinary considering this is a prison.
If it were not for the inflamatory ''I saw cruel, sadistic torture...'', and the words being uttered by a really important sounding congressperson, you would give the whole thing a shrug, and a ''shit happens'' write up.
Perhaps there is some other reason why Rep. Jane Harmon D-Calif. would make a mountain out of a moles hill. Why yes there is!
Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.), ranking member on the House Select Committee on Intelligence, is being pressured by three party colleagues on the panel to abandon her long-standing and hard-earned reputation for bipartisanship and inflict as much damage as possible on President Bush over pre-war intelligence.

Pressure
You turned the tap dance into your crusade.
Now here you are with your faith
And your Peter Pan advice.
You have no scars on your face
And you cannot handle PRESSURE.

Meanwhile in reality, hundreds of Iraqis protest against Sadr. No room for that headline, I guess - what, with all the space dedicated to admiring this "revolutionary leader".

Hey congrats CosmoGirl

Welcome back
your dreams were your ticket out
Welcome back
to that same old place we use to laugh about
The names have all changed since we started out
But the dreams still remain and they've turned around
Who'd have thought we need ya (who'd have thought we need ya)
Back here where we need ya (back here where we need ya)
We tease ya alot cause we got you on the spot WELCOME BACK
welcome back welcome back welcome back.

No room for that headline, I guess - what, with all the space dedicated to admiring this "revolutionary leader".

Doug, I hope you can translate this, from your notoriously "anti-American" Le Monde's editorial. Maybe next time you'll be a little more objective.

Ce qu'ont fait les hommes de Zarkaoui est une barbarie. Un crime moralement inexcusable, mais aussi politiquement dévastateur pour la cause qu'ils prétendent défendre. Si l'indignation suscitée dans les pays arabes et dans le reste du monde après les révélations sur le sort des détenus de la prison d'Abou Ghraïb est légitime, ce crime et la vidéo qui en témoigne dépassent l'entendement. Et l'on veut espérer une condamnation aussi unanime du crime mis en scène par Al-Qaida, de cette surenchère dans l'abomination.

Zoomer

I give up. You lost me with the ''Vive la France'' thing.
How about translating that paragraph for me so I can figure out what your talking about.
What is a ''qu'ont''?

Tourism is down everywhere, including in the US from abroad.

And you think this is bad news? Frogs, Please, Please stay away.

Where was the frog concern for the Iraqies who where being tortured and killed under Saddam? Just big f**king crocodile tears for them now. Why was it the frogs were silent about torture and mass murder committed by Hussein?

Can you say OIL?

Because of the prison scandal, almost unnoticed yesterday Russia and f**king frogland (TWO of the biggest benefactors of the OIL-FOR-FRAUD program) are back at the UN proposing “a new Iraqi caretaker government” that would require “Iraq’s new leaders exercise control over the countries oil wealth..”

Yup, its about the Oil, you friggin frogs. Of course, keep fanning the flames of hatred of the “sons of allah” so you can get your hands on the Oil.

You frogs make me want to puke.

Zoomer,
Then the editorial goes on to blame it on Bush for his Iraqi Adventure and says that the project should be handed over to the UN. It will be much easier for the French to get those contracts that Saddam signed enforced that way. You know, the ones that basically turn Iraq into a French colony. Already it looks like the Alcatel GSM phone deal involved bribery.

These Al Qaeda people were in Iraq long before the war. We needed to go in there and clean them out. They have declared war on us, there is no way to make peace with them. They must be destroyed. Still, all France can worry about is preserving the 'legitimacy' of her now shown to be useless veto, and getting as much filthy lucre out of a corrupt ME as she can.

The frogs tend the lack the brain processing power necessary to understand the fact that what was seen here was nothing compared to Saddam Hussein's atrocities and tend to think that just because a few did it, than the whole US military must be guilty.

Here is a comment that sums up my view of European opinion very nicely:

Like the late Eighteenth Century French aristocrats dancing and dining at Versailles, the media elites party away, valuing only the opinions of those who have been invited to the ball. All others are dismissed as crude, hate-filled, stupid, uneducated, and unworthy, if not outright Nazis.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3538

It is why I keep posting here. I can see small signs of progress in getting at least a small number of Europeans to question at least a tiny drop or two ("Bush killed Kyoto") of the massive flood agit-prop they are spoon fed every day.

This was not supposed to happen. April was supposed to mark the death rattle of the American occupation in Iraq. It was never meant to lead to joint Marine-Iraqi patrols in Fallujah or Iraqi commandos hunting down Moqtada Al-Sadr in Najaf. Yet the change did not proceed from "more American boots on the ground" nor from the provision of additional guards for the Baghdadi antiquities or an influx of NGOs. Still less was it the consequence of a grant of legitimacy from the United Nations or the messianic arrival of French troops. In fact it coincided with the departure of the Spanish contingent from Iraq. The change sprang from the correct application of the original strategy: building a democratic and free Iraq by recognizing the leadership which arose from the circumstances. It arose not from an imposed set of politically correct commissars in Baghdad but in complementing indigenous efforts with American strengths.

http://www.belmontclub.blogspot.com/2004_05_01_belmontclub_archive.html#108444639219628101

Here is another view of the war in Iraq that you won't get from your 'free press'. It nicely sums up the difference between top-down Roman styly control of a population, and bottom up, let liberty enable those who can lead to show themselves, regardless of social class Anglo-Saxon thought.

You can dismiss it as propaganda if you want, but you should understand the thinking if you truly want to understand us.

You also just might want to print it off and file it away, along with some news stories from your media. Then, say around Christmas, you may want to compare the two in light of what you will know then about the situation, and see which way of thinking is more reliable.

After all, frogland has lost it's appeal as a vacation spot anyway

Fact or wishful thinking? Tourism is down everywhere, including in the US from abroad.

Yeah zoomer, but it really hurts in France. Us stupid 'merican tourists spend 4 times as much as your sophisticated European tourists. For every one of us that don't visit you have to import 4 "loutish brits" to make up for the lost dosh.

You guys got so desperate you even hired Woody Allen to convince us dumb yanks that France was still a place we wanted to visit. *That* alone tells you how completely out in left field the French idea of America is.

blah blah blah...

but in all this crap, there is this marvellous quote:

"The frogs tend the lack the brain processing power necessary to understand the fact that what was seen here was nothing compared to Saddam Hussein's atrocities " JC Denton

You tend the lack the brain processing power necessary to understand the fact that atrocities can't be compared, just added.

Where was the frog concern for the Iraqies who where being tortured and killed under Saddam?

I agree. And where was the US concern? Get real. The US did not "liberate" Irak out of a good heart. Please "liberate" North Korea.

These Al Qaeda people were in Iraq long before the war.

News flash: they're mostly in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Oops, I forgot they're your allies.

The frogs tend the lack the brain processing power necessary to understand the fact that what was seen here was nothing compared to Saddam Hussein's atrocities and tend to think that just because a few did it, than the whole US military must be guilty.

Unfortunately, that's human nature. Same with blaming the frogs with everything.

I know this is about thrashing the French, but since we're talking about the press, I found this gem, courtesy of our British friends. I've always thought the Brits were a much more "biting" than the French in their criticicism of Irak. I find it a bit amusing how many Americans seem clueless on how they're perceived even by their "real" European friends. You never hear about "anti-Americanism" coming from the UK media. The Guardian's cartoon are hillarious too.

I find it a bit amusing how many Americans seem clueless on how they're perceived even by their "real" European friends.

Nope, we're quite aware of the Guardian (and the Mirror, Independent (rebadged Guardian)). No one's claimed there's no anti-Americanism among our allies (Hell, we have 'em here. Read Chomsky sometime). Its that with the French its institutional. The great thing about France is you're actually worse than our enemies: at least Syria, the PA, N. Korea, et al are up front with their anti-Americanism. You pricks try to claim you're our friend all the while trying to fuck us at every opportunity.

--------------------------

Mrs. Miggins "Bonjewer, monsewer. It's French."

Blackadder "So is eating frogs, cruelty to geese and urinating in the street. But that's no reason to inflict it on the rest of us."

You pricks try to claim you're our friend all the while trying to fuck us at every opportunity.

There are other publications besides Le Monde, FBR, you know, "free press". "Fuck you up" at every opportunity... translate: "Does not always agree with you". Only the French. Again, if you think evereryone in the UK want to kiss your ass, you're sadly mistaken.

"they're mostly in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Oops, I forgot they're your allies."

"The US did not "liberate" Irak out of a good heart. Please "liberate" North Korea."

One at a time boys, one at a time. We didn't defeat Japan, Germany, Italy, Vichy France, and the Soviet Union all at one go. It took patience. Have the sense of historical time that you always accuse Americans of lacking.

And I agree that we did not liberate Iraq out of altruism. We did it because it was a nest of terrorists, as recent events have proven beyond doubt.

We did it because the jihadis keep going there, into the free-fire zone, and we can kill them by the hundreds and thousands. They almost thank us for it. Terrorism is way down outside of Iraq. I wonder if those stacks of dead jihadis have anything to do with it?

We also did it because we have abandoned, after 9-11, a lot of Old Europe's attitudes. One of them is that these people need to be ridden hard by a brutal tyrant to keep them in line. George Bush Sr. beleived that, as does France to this day. 'W' does not. He, and we Americans now believe that regimes like Saddam's just brutalize the Arabs themselves, making them care little for human life. You can criticize the US all you want for our pre 9-11 policies, but please understand that this is a different country now. We don't live under the dead hand of the past the way you guys do.

I would just once like one of you to take on the bolded argument above. But you wont because you can't.

""free press" ... translate: "Does not always agree with you". "

This says everything anyone needs to know about the limits of the Gaulic mind. A free press will present both sides of a story.

A free press does not take sides and therefore cannot agree or disagree with anybody. Elements of a free press (newspapers, news channels, etc )can take sides. If you have nobody giving the other point of view, even though there are no doubt millions of French who would read it, you do not have a free press.

Admit it, if you couldn't read English, you wouldn't see many of the stories that you read here.

All we ask of a free press is to see the arguments against the government line be presented openly with legitimacy. Instead, the French fire Hertogue, I think his name was, for questioning the govt line. And French posters here defend it.

There are other publications besides Le Monde, FBR, you know, "free press". "Fuck you up" at every opportunity... translate: "Does not always agree with you". Only the French. Again, if you think evereryone in the UK want to kiss your ass, you're sadly mistaken.

Liberation perhaps? How about Le Canard Enchainé? And it wasn't the press I was talking about Zoomer, but your gov't. From DeGaul onwards (if not before) you've gone out of your way to screw us. Granted, a lot of this is in self-interest, and in theory I have no problem with that -- a country needs to put itself first and look after its own interests. But its the two-faced "oh, we're such good friends / pay no mind as we stab you in the back" attitude the French gov't has that sucks the high hard one.

Again, if you think evereryone in the UK want to kiss your ass, you're sadly mistaken.

Again, as always you seem to have the reading comprehension of a potted cactus. Didn't I say before I wasn't under the illusion that the Brits (I should say we Brits since I'm also a British citizen) weren't 100% 'rah-rah' American? Hell, I lived there long enough to know that.

I have some Dr. Seuss books lying around if you need some reading comprehension remediation.

UH qu'ont? Sounds rather Froggish and rather dirty...so do we really want to know what that means?
LOL!

One at a time boys, one at a time. We didn't defeat Japan, Germany, Italy, Vichy France, and the Soviet Union all at one go. It took patience.

Oh boy... you couldn't make a worse (and dumb) comparaison. It took patience, for that I give you credit. It took the Soviet Union too. The problem with Al-Quaeda is not as clear-cut.

Have the sense of historical time that you always accuse Americans of lacking

I srongly suggest you do the same.

Liberation perhaps? How about Le Canard Enchainé?

Left wing papers, what do you fucking expect from Le Canard? Or L'Humanité perhaps? Ypu're a Brit? Funny you don't sound like one, btw.

I have some Dr. Seuss books lying around if you need some reading comprehension remediation.

I never liked Dr. Seuss, it's boring... like British food.

*That* alone tells you how completely out in left field the French idea of America is.

And vice-versa, FRB (the Woody Allen thing is old news. Bad choice I admit, Allen falling in love with his adopted daughter did not go very well with your puritan morals...)

Unlike you I actually enjoy visiting the UK (and the US) without my little stupid pre-concieved ideas (I'll even forgive your culinary skills)...

Zoomer

We will have to remember to stock freshly squeezed qu'onts for your next visit - for supper maybe.

You never hear about "anti-Americanism" coming from the UK media. The Guardian's cartoons are hilarious too.

Well, frog, you do. We are fully aware of the anti-American anti-Israel reporting of the BBC. They are as predictably biased as f**king frog rags. Hell, for that matter every major newspaper in the world is anti-American and anti-Bush.

Excuse me, I have to go puke now, f’ing frogs……

"Does not always agree with you".

Interesting phrasing. I think native English speakers might find "Pisses on your back and tells you it's raining" to be a more accurate characterization.

Hell, for that matter every major newspaper in the world is anti-American and anti-Bush.

That would reflect most of the world's view about Irak. I didn't see much "anti-Americanism" when the Taliban was being wiped out.

I would also remind you that every US media was predicting that French-made WMD's would be found in Irak, France would have "blood on its hands" etc... The (forged) passports story, the French missiles found by Polish troops (retracted later by Poland) etc, etc... So what's left? Pave France.

"It took the Soviet Union too. The problem with Al-Quaeda is not as clear-cut."

Yeah, because we expected you to actually help us this time, and because the Soviet Union whas not bribing you, and because you were actually under visible threat of attack.

And yes, we used the Soviet Union to defeat Germany, then we used Germany and Europe to collapse the Soviet Union.

It may be that we can not defeat our enemies now without Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. This does not buy them permanent license to tolerate terror attacks against us. This is what I meant by sense of history, what do you mean? What are you pointing to in history that you consider a lesson for me that I am missing? Why is my comparison 'dumb'? Please share.

So what's left? Pave France?

Nope, OIL FOR FRAUD you frikin puke frog. That will be enough "blood on your hands" for me, froggie.

How convenient that “scandal” has been taken of the front pages of the press. Not enough “American” involvement I guess, eh you ******* frog?

Not enough “American” involvement I guess, eh you ******* frog?

It's been rather quiet, but wait and see...

Or maybe they don't want Chenney's Halliburton
dirty little bribe dealings in Niger to resurface and blow up in their faces? Did you say Greed ?

Great fu*kerfrogerx, just another 2 year old story in your link. How interesting, you piece of f**k frog.

You never hear about "anti-Americanism" coming from the UK media. Part II, frogerx wrong again.

Here is how the BBC described the video execution of Nick Berg:
“His killers shouted ‘A**ah is great’ before holding what appeared to be a head up to the camera”

Excuse me, APPEARED? Yeah, wouldn’t want to accuse the “sons of a**ah” of any wrongdoing, now would we? After all, the video may have been fake, like the pictures the Nation of Islam was pushing, and the Boston Globe printed.

Of course, the stories of the beheading are already ‘old’ news. Besides, the prison abuse scandal can damage Bush, while the Nick Berg story can only help Bush. That’s why it’s ‘old’ news.

Great fu*kerfrogerx, just another 2 year old story in your link. How interesting, you piece of f**k frog.

Ah good, Chenney and Halliburton have now washed their sins... It's really amazing how you in the US seem to do nothing wrong. Must be the "born again" thing... (see my Guardian link above)

“His killers shouted ‘A**ah is great’ before holding what appeared to be a head up to the camera”
Excuse me, APPEARED? Yeah, wouldn’t want to accuse the “sons of a**ah” of any wrongdoing, now would we? blah blah blah...

Oh yes andy, that choice of word SCREAMS "anti-Americanism", no question about it.

Ok, i know what i'm going to say is not very politically correct but...

Can someone say that some of the USA torture pictures are not funny? Of course they are. C'mon, i know it's cruel, but no one dies there.
Naked people, anal sex, oral sex, a little bit of physical pain, a lot f psycological humilliation.

Well, in my opinion, let's say it this way "civilizated tortures".
If i want to get information to someone i prefer to do it that way, rather than cut his hand or feed him with flowered fromage. ths't what saddam did with their prisoners, can you compare bouth things? Of course you don't!!!

But there's something where you can't find no exception, no one can feel, no one human, anything else than loath, rage and fury when you see Nick Berg video.

So froggies, please stop that shit right now.
Our enemy won't see the fact that we ask for responsabilities to everyone in the Penthagone as a sign of civilization. For them is a sign of weakness. how we concerned about our soldiers abuses for them is something laughable. Torture people, medieval torture, is something normal to them.
Is good to control our troops behaviour but not till the point of creating a problem, and to divide our allies.
The press don't realise that it's not the right time to play this antiamerican game.

" every US media was predicting that French-made WMD's would be found in Irak"

One way to tell when someone's argument is weak is to see how often they have to make up lies to support it. See above for example.

Israel took care of Saddam's French-made WMDs decades ago. There *was* noise in *some* of the media about the possibility because we could not understand why France was so pro-Saddam. Now we find out that it had to do with bribery, of course, we should have known.

Unlike you I actually enjoy visiting the UK (and the US) without my little stupid pre-concieved ideas (I'll even forgive your culinary skills)...

Interesting that. I had no preconcieved ideas of France when I went there at aged 13. It was the woman who screamed at me on the Paris metro for five minutes about how I started the Vietnam war (this was 1983, and, as I mentioned, I was 13) that started the souring, but I digress, since I was talking about the French gov't, not their food (overly rich, I'll take roast beef and yorkshire pudding over it any day of the week) wine (great for getting oil off the driveway) or anything else you've been prattling on about. But by all means, keep jumping to conclusions.

Oh, and I apologies about the potted cactus dis, apparently a potted cactus could out reason you with ease.

Hola Victor !

Was a long time I did not read you.

Can someone say that some of the USA torture pictures are not funny?

Yes, the few pics I saw did not make me laugh but rather puke. It is sad, dirty perversion. I love what some call perversion when it's healthy and brings fun to ALL actors but I hate it when the fun is just at one side of a gun.

how we concerned about our soldiers abuses for them is something laughable. Torture people, medieval torture, is something normal to them.

I don't care if it is something "normal" for them or not, the question is rather "is it normal for us to go at this ?"

i know what i'm going to answer is not very politically correct but...

My answer is YES. Just a remind, what BUSH II started last year was not a video game but a WAR. US won the military battle and then is now occuping the country. Then automatically, there is an opposition to this occupation (discussing who occuper or oponents is right or wrong is other issue).
When a war is at this stage, all human right are crushed by the facts. Ask yourself what would you choose at the place of the interogator your alternative is getting clue which may save x lives or "keep you hands clean" ?

It is why in ALL times ALL armies involved in occupation have ALWAYS used torture. The only difference is how much these facts came to be known.

So it is not that much an "American" problem
For what what we know so far, these tortures in Irak, Afghanistan and Guantanamo are WAY LIGHTER than the horrors we did some 50 years ago in Algeria.
We must admit that the way the matter came quickly on surface shows that freedom and democracy are still healthy in USA.

As I already wrote the choice is not torture or not but war or peace. Once you have choosen war... no other choice ON BOTH SIDE than doing ANYTHING necessary, AS LONG AS NECESSARY to win...

BANDE D'APPRENTIS SORCIERS @#@#%!!!

Indeed Drive-By

Israel took care of Saddam's French-made WMDs decades ago.

I remember this old gone time when ALL of our beautyfull free democracies where running to Bagdad and make a huge file of competitors waiting their turn to lick Saddam's arse. This is just one of them

But OK, their was a good excuse : the current devil was Iran...

But however, thanks to Israel for having crushed these nuclear plant. They did the right thing at the right moment THEM.

Just compare then Israeli and American methods and results...

A "shitty little country" like Israel:
- found the WMD
- destroyed them in an eye blink.
- did not start a new war.

The "super-power" of the world
- Started a new war
- Did not find anything
- Fool around today like lost chickens, trying to get support from Iran to appease the Shias, help from former Baathist to calm down Sunnis in Fallujah and discover today with "horror" that war is bloody dirty and try to put the faults on an handfull of low class soldiers.

This tell it all.

"Fool around today like lost chickens"

Just because you don't understand what is happening, that does not lend any weight to your criticism.

Either explain why you believe the strategy will fail with specifics, or wait a couple of months to see how it will come out. As always, a Frenchman crows too early while knee-deep in la merde.

You could still explain how a handshake = nuclear power plant. I can never get that one.

BTW "Shitty little country" is France's description, by their ambassador, not mine. I have a lot of respect for Israel.

Interesting that. I had no preconcieved ideas of France when I went there at aged 13. It was the woman who screamed at me on the Paris metro for five minutes about how I started the Vietnam war (this was 1983, and, as I mentioned, I was 13) that started the souring,

Ah, so that's it - a freak on the subway. Apparently that marked you for life. Poor FRB. My souring with the UK started with the Spice Girls.

but I digress, since I was talking about the French gov't, not their food (overly rich, I'll take roast beef and yorkshire pudding over it any day of the week) wine (great for getting oil off the driveway) or anything else you've been prattling on about.

I'll take torture and humiliation over English puddings. Please.

Oh, and I apologies about the potted cactus dis, apparently a potted cactus could out reason you with ease.

Yes and my daddy can beat up your daddy.

Not that you will read it, since it is beyond your abilities to deal with an idea contrary to your brainwashing, but here goes anyway.

The Saddam-9/11 Link Confirmed

By the way, the Berg decapitation has re-pissed-off everybody I know. It may have been a mistake on the part of Al Qaeda. Even Al-Jazeera has figured this out and is trying to make the case that it must have been faked because it helped Bush so much. The fight goes on, and your Oil for Food money tit has gone dry. C'est la vie.

So it's that simple, de-programmer? The Czech story involving Iraki agents is vague from what I've always read. I would also bet your magazine as a stong slant, but the fact remains that the Irak connection with 9/11 is very murky. You can be sure if it was the case, the US would expose the facts as quickly as possible for their own good. Al Quaeda is a network of thugs with no particular national identity. Mohamed Atta was Saudi, Berg's murderer is Jordanian.

Interesting cartoon (sorry to come back to the main subject).

France is definely the America's friend , because it wants Bush to be sacked out of his post.
And that is really something we can wish for the United States.

When guys will you realize that you have nothing to do there. Your boys are killed ,your money is spent. for what ?
One day or another, US will leave, and guess what ? The terrorist will still be there...

I remember Bush in front of the "Mission Accomplished" banner.Look how it is now in Irak.
What is accomplished ?

Your president is real plain and self-satsified Zero.

I'm sorry for you guys.

I'll take torture and humiliation over English puddings. Please.

You do realize that Yorkshire pudding isn't pudding, right?

Did your parents have any kids that lived?

Apparently that marked you for life.

Nope, just an eye opener. French gov't policy throughout the ages has taken care of the rest.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

"We hate the French! We fight wars against them! Did all those men die in vain on the field of Agincourt? Was the man who burnt Joan of Arc simply wasting good matches?" - E. Blackadder

Iraqs Ministry of Human Rights.
Iraqs Ministry of Information.
Iraqs Ministry of Oil
Iraqs Ministry of Finance
Iraqs Ministry of Health
Iraqs Ministry of Water Resources
Iraqs Foreign Ministry

I have read that there are eight ministries of government in Iraq which are operating today. These are the ones I found the names of with a google search.
All are completely autonomous, not run by the Coalition or Interim government.

But of course you knew of these accomplishments from your ever watchful media, printing the stories that matter. Didn't you?

Could anybody help me to find the name of the other Ministry of Iraqi Government? Instapundit said there are eight and I know he wouldn't lie to me.

America is the mother of all accomplishments.

As Omar said,
The first week of this month brought good news to the Iraqi retired governmental employees. They started to receive salaries instead of the emergency payments they used to get during the last 12 months.
Each one of them used to receive 80 $ every three months (compared with an average of 20 $ on Saddam's days) but now they're getting paid about 200 $ every three months. And this is just the beginning, as the minister of oil stated. He promised that there will be more financial assignments for the retired's salaries in the next few months as a result of the increase in both, the oil export rates and the oil prices in the market.

and Mohammad said,

I guess that you’ve heard in the news that the Iraqi Olympic football team has successfully passed the qualifiers for Athens (the last time they did was in 1988 I guess). Although this was three days ago and despite all the current conflicts and unfavorable conditions we have, it’s still the reason behind the broad smiles on the faces of Iraqis in the streets.
I was in Basra when our Olympic team won the match against the Saudi team 3-1 and I had no idea about the way Baghdadis celebrated this victory until I returned back yesterday. Only then, I knew that the celebrations were no less than those we saw when Saddam was captured; people went down to the streets in many neighborhoods singing, dancing and shooting in the air (I don’t like this last one but it’s better than shooting each other and it helps to deplete the stockpiled ammunition ). I’m not a sports expert but I believe that what our athletes did was close to a miracle; they had to win with a good result (1-0 was not enough) and at the same time they had to wait for a draw in the Kuwait- Oman match. In addition, the last time Iraq won a match against Saudi Arabia was in 1988 and since then the Saudi team became a difficult barrier to pass. More than this, all home matches for the Iraqi team were held outside Iraq because of the security situation. I remember similar occasions-most of them with easier groups and moderate required results-in the past and those always led to a failure but this time we saw great determination and hard work from our team to win and to prove their skills. Why is this? And why do Iraqi athletes score better than before despite the low budgets, short training course and all the technical problems they have to overcome and psychological pressures they’re subjected to?
I have one reasonable cause in my mind; Udday is gone and the athletes now are training, playing and scoring to satisfy their fans, bring joy to the hearts of their countrymen and to become famous, successful and rich not to avoid Udday's inhumane punishment nor to please the tyrant’s bloody son who used to hijack their rare victories which were considered to be “the results of his wise leadership of the sport movement in the great Iraq”.
When Iraqis were celebrating, they forgot everything about "occupation", "resistance", "unemployment" and politics in general.
They just wanted to see something that makes them regain confidence in themselves and in their country and I could feel them say "YES, WE DID IT IN FOOTBALL AND WE CAN DO IT IN OTHER FIELDS".

And as Ali said,

Please, all those who care about the poor Iraqis and want to save them from the brutality of the American invaders and who want to prevent the Americans from stealing our fortune; meaning Bin laden, Zagrawi and their followers, Arab and Muslim tyrants, our good friend monsieur Dominique de Villepin, all the pacifists of the world, the major media, and in short, all those who hate America and obviously love Iraq: Get your s**t together and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT or else one or two years from now Iraq will be…a prosperous country, and then we will never forgive you for letting us down when we needed you!
Besides, how would you face us if my cousin got a car and had an accident?!

You do realize that Yorkshire pudding isn't pudding, right?

I realize it's British food. But I love the Yorkshire area. Lovely place.

Nope, just an eye opener.

If I had to judge the US from all the freaks I came across in New York City...

French gov't policy throughout the ages has taken care of the rest.

Such as?...

Zoomer

What? You don't want to talk about Iraqi retirement benefits, Olympic victories, or traffic problems?

French gov't policy throughout the ages has taken care of the rest.

Such as?...

Short attention span, eh?

Already forgot the 20 odd posts I've already put on this board?

Short attention span, eh?

But if you insist I'll enumerate them, but it'll take a while. Its a looooooong list.

Short attention span, eh?

If I had to judge the US from all the freaks I came across in New York City...

A little tip for you fu*kerx: If you stay out of the US you won't come upon them. I guess we could include all frogs there. Stay home. Play with the "sons of allah". Stay away from us.

France is definely the America's friend

Well, I guess our pathetic little f**k marc has not read Colombani’s latest masterpiece in Le Monde yet, titled "Tous Non-Américains ?"

If I had to choose between friends like you frog fu*ks and "sons of allah", well, geez, frogs, I'd take the muslims.

A little tip for you fu*kerx: If you stay out of the US you won't come upon them. I guess we could include all frogs there. Stay home. Play with the "sons of allah". Stay away from us.

Spoken like a true Merkin redneck. Who is "us"? I have lots of American friends, by the way. One of them is coming to France for 3 months to visit. He loves it there.

p.s. Why did you turn into an asshole, andy?

Short attention span, eh?

Speaking of assholes...

What? You don't want to talk about Iraqi retirement benefits, Olympic victories, or traffic problems?

I wish their football team them the best.

Woohoo!!! Zoomer called me an asshole. Now that's just made my day.

You're very welcome.

I have read that there are eight ministries of government in Iraq which are operating today. These are the ones I found the names of with a google search.

There are 25 ministries in Iraq wich have been operating since the establishment of the CPA, all of which existed in some form before the war. I think that the eight you refer to are the ones that have been handed over to Iraqi control so far. At least I know that health was the first one to be given over, and that water and human rights have also been handed over, and the ministry of foreign affairs was just handed over yesterday (5-14). I'm sure I've missed a few - these things somehow don't make headlines - but those 4 are all on your list.

Just compare then Israeli and American methods and results...

Why don't we compare Michael Andretti's methods and results also? Build a really expensive car, drive fast, become famous and make lots of money - yeah, that should work, right? Oh, wait, no it won't - because we're talking about three completely different plans for three completely different goals, aren't we. Well, at least I think we are.. and maybe that's the problem.

This is what, still today, I don't get. Even after this issue had been talked to death, I don't understand how there can be intelligent, rational people anywhere on the planet (with access to unfiltered information) who can frame the issue in this fashion with no dishonesty. I have to wonder, how can someone like that put forth a statement that looks that flawed to me?

You see, when I see this sort of stunt being pulled normally, I usually write it off as some partisan twink with the integrity of the average carney trying to distort the issue into a form more manageable for their ideoligical position by claiming that unequal premises are actually equal. There's usually plenty of additional evidence to support that assumption. However, I've never seen anything from you, Pierre, to suggest to me that you are not honest beyond that sort of crap, so I'm forced to wonder just what went wrong. One of us had to take a wrong turn to wind up at two so divergent destinations.

This is where I am absolutely confounded - clearly, there is a serious disconnect existing between anti-war folks and where I am, but I haven't yet been able to identify it. To all appearances, this is pretty close to that disconnect's ground zero - maybe you can help me figure it out.

The fact that you would assert that Israel's destruction of the reactor is a better approach than the war suggests that you think that both circumstances were roughly paralel - is this true? Do you also think that the US and Israel were pursuing analogous goals? If this is true, then I understand your argument, but I don't understand how you arrived at it.

Israel's case was very simple - they did not want Saddam to have the capacity to produce fissile material. His willingness to use WMD, work with people who share that willingness (although theirs might more aptly be termed "eagerness"), and the hostility of both these parties toward Israel made this a possibility they decided they could not permit. The construction and location of the plant were known, and a single air strike was sufficient to remove it. No, Israel did not start a new war (which it can scarcely afford to do while surrounded by countries itching for an excuse to erase it from the map). So - why doesn't Israel bomb all nuclear reactors everywhere? Very simply, it's because a nuclear plant in and of itself is not a problem. It takes a little more than that to be one.

So tell me, what do you think Israel's goal was? To remove a threat? Israel removed only one component of that threat - the plant. Israel did not remove the threat itself, as the millions paid by Saddam to mercenaries to attack Israel attest - they only prevented the threat from escalating. The willingness and hostility which made the plant a potential danger in the first place were still present. That is the threat, not the plant. In my mind, Israel's goal was not removing a threat, but containing it (and to a small extent at that).

Now, for your comparison to be true (and not just a pile of intellectually dishonest drivel to propel an agenda), there are premises which you must also believe to be true. You must believe that the US and Israel had the same essential goals; you must believe that Israel's methods were applicable to the US' goal; you must believe that Israel succeeded in meeting its goal.

I really would like to find out where this disconnect exists. I could proceed forward from here and turn this into another "novella post", but I'd have to make a lot of assumptions about your thinking which I'd rather just hear from you. If you'll stand by your initial assertion, then please tell me if your assessment of the reactor bombing agrees with mine (and where you think I went wrong if not), and confirm or deny that my assertions in the paragraph above are true.

Thank you Doug for the confirmation.
Yes I was refering to the Ministries that have been handed over totally to Iraqi control. You have me wondering if my list is entirely accurate. I'll have to look a bit more .

IRAQ’S MINISTRY OF PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT transitioned to full autonomy on May 14th.
The Ministry of Planning and Development(equivalent to HUD in America) Coordination has provided Iraq with a strategic vision for reconstruction. During the past year they have worked closely with other Iraqi ministries to prioritize more than 700 reconstruction programs.

So I think that makes eight minitries of government fully autonomous from the Coalition Provisional Authority.

Hum, De-programmer...

You could still explain how a handshake = nuclear power plant. I can never get that one.

I hope and bet that you don't take seriously yourself the equation above. It is highly probable that Ronald Reagan did not send Donald Rumsfeld "just to shake his hand"... May be it wa also to talk about some issues which could be a concern for USA ?

It was during the war Iraq-Iran, It was claimed all around that Iraq was a safe secular allied for the western world, and got ALL WHAT HE WISHED from ALL of us during these times.

So you can clame as much as you like that it was an heavy mistake to privide him all that stuff because indeed, it was. But don't forget you where ammong all these providers.

So either talk about "We" or, if you need to name the country members of Saddam's provider club, don't forget your's

At least in your mind if not in your posts...

Doug,

Sometime comparison shows analogy, sometimes it shows differences or absolute opposition.

About analogy
The permanent threatening situation of israel and the ponctual humiliation of 9/11 gave to both country the obligation to fight back. That was clear and obvious like the nose in the middle of the face.
This was the analogy, some liked or disliked Bush or sharon. Some where pro this or anti that. But every body knew that like Isreael had to fight for her existance USA had to show that the murder of 3000 of her citizens could not be accepted.

Most around the world agreed with your reaction, som disagreed but.. EVERY BODY COULD UNDERSTAND. Including the Talibans.

Analogy stops here to become a total opposition. While it is still easy to understand Israel's action, NO WAY to understand the motivations to start suddenly while the Afghan step was still to be acomplished a new frontline in Iraq. At the beginig all was about WMD WMD and WMD, proofs and evidence, clamed again and again but never shown. As WMD concern was the trigger for the Israeli raid on Osirak, the comparison come by itself:
On one side
No talk, Ponctual action and then results and proofs

On the other
Big noise, Big military operation and victory and one year later proofs and results still to come.

Anyone can tell anything about your motivatons to go in Iraq, depanding upon conviction and wishes it can be oil, personal interests of Mr Cheney and co, spreading democracy and human rights, Internal politic agenda, WOT, some could even try to keep on talking about WMD...

But who the hell can really understand ???

There is no shortage of psychotherapy in our country (USA) and I think it would behoove some people on this forum to seek some.
As I contemplate the mindset that must be behind the creation of a website dedicated solely to bashing a particular country, even one whose politics with whom you completely disagree, I am 99% certain that I am wasting my time by writing this. I feel, however, that if I don't argue with this type of ignorance, I don't have a right to complain about it. So here I go.
"Fine - to be more specific, how kind of the French to paint our country (and our president) as a racist bunch of rednecks who hate Muslims for being Muslims when the truth is far from it.Mike Krempasky"
Let's imagine that our country and our president were as you say, a "racist bunch of rednecks who hate Muslims for being Muslims". Would the French then be obliged to portray us in a good light, independent of the reality? With the statement "when the truth is far from it" you imply that French do this out of pure malice, that French deliberately are distorting the situation.
I have several issues with this implication.
First of all, is it even at all possible that there is even just a little bit of truth behind those allegations? If Saudi Arabia, for example, was simultaneously illegally detaining hundreds of American citizens, installing itself illegally on American territory (maybe Puerto Rico or some off-shore territory) by killing and torturing the natives, recording it, and then putting it on international television, and giving money, weapons, and international aid to a country whose primary military operation was the daily bombing of Christians, then would it be radical if France thought that Saudi Arabia hates Americans?
It would for one reason: who is France? “France” does not think anything. Why is it that the opinions of 60.18 million people are being characterized as if they were one? Do you realize how backwards this way of thinking is?
Some French people are Anti-American. Some French people are Anti-War. Some French people are Anti-Bush. These are not the same thing. I for one, am neither a sadist nor a KKK member, and as a result do not feel personally offended by that cartoon.
Most Europeans are opposed to the War. Why single out the French? And, have you ever asked yourselves, could some war opponents possibly have good arguments for their opposition?

It’s just a thought.

Jonathan

thanks Jonathan ;)

"There is no shortage of psychotherapy in our country (USA) and I think it would behoove some people on this forum to seek some."

So, if we don't agree with you, we should just shut up and get therapy, since you are so obviously right that anybody who disagrees with you must be mentally ill?

"First of all, is it even at all possible that there is even just a little bit of truth behind those allegations?"

Yokay. We are all Klansmen and Sadists, just like Robert Bird, hero of the Democrats, who actually was a recruiter for the KKK. I'll give you that one if you give me the possiblity that the reason this web site bothers you is the grain of truth that even you can recognize here.

"I for one, am neither a sadist nor a KKK member, and as a result do not feel personally offended by that cartoon."

Are you personally a moron? I guess then that you will not be insulted if I call you one. Are you peronally a brainwashed lefty suffering from low self esteem who identifies a bit too strongly with that passel of losers we call Europe? Do you seek validation, comfort from your angst, from a group that has shown the world how to kill by the scores of millions? I guess you won't be insulted if I say that it looks that way to me.

One of the reasons I call you a moron is because, despite the name, if you had actually read the threads you would have seen that this site serves the purpose of increasing understanding between us "neo-cons" and them "surrender monkeys" through sometimes thoughtful discussion between sides who disagree. Sometimes we even enjoy the back and forth.

Why don't you either go back to Indymedia or DU or whatever mono-maniacal echo chamber you came from or join the discussion constructively? You know, by reading what has already been said, and coming into the discussion from that point of view?

"It is highly probable that Ronald Reagan did not send Donald Rumsfeld "just to shake his hand"

On my side, we have proof that Chirac tried to give Saddam nuclear weapons. On your side you have the claim that Rumsfeld was up to no good.

One thing that you French still don't understand is how deeply affected we were as a nation by 911. Not just the grief, but the realization that our foreign policy was defective. Just because we chose to anaylyze it in our own way, and not just to say "The French were right", and come to our own conclusions as to how to handle it does not mean that we have not rejected our old policies. I have never argued that we never supported Saddam.

I just say that Old Europe's way of doing things, through looking the other way at human rights abuses and seeking maximum economic advantage from brutal regimes does not work. RR began to walk away from this view of the world, but not completely and made mistakes. George Bush Senior embraced the European way of doing things too. He was wrong.

Post Sept 11th we realized that Osamma had a point or two which were valid. Bringing up ancient history over an over without some kind of evidence that the policy that led to that handshake continues is pointless.

Who has done more for Saddam, and stuck by him to the last? Chirac, the same guy who tried to arm Saddam with nuclear weapons, condemning Iraqis to totalitarian rule for generations perhaps.

Nice to read person like Jonathan who does not summarize a whole nation as ONE person having ONE idea or agenda.

After all, according to Georges Brassens about what happends when we are more than four,
text
music

It is not that urgent to bother about "national thought" ;)

On my side, we have proof that Chirac tried to give Saddam nuclear weapons. On your side you have the claim that Rumsfeld was up to no good.

OK to tell that selling key in hand a nuclear plant was huge fault.

Taking it at a proof that the intent was to give Saddam's nuclear WEAPON is just your conclusion.

If you want to know a bit more about what you call "the claim that Rumsfeld was up to no good", open a second window and have a go
Here. Then if you are still hungry you can have a visit here

Or, should be these places to "LLL" for you, just make a search on google

George Bush Senior embraced the European way of doing things too. He was wrong.

This one remind me the story of this guy driving his car and beeing bothered with the car in front of him which drives to slowly, too at the middle etc. gueting nervous, he tell his wife beside "Look at HER ! this shows all about gals driving !". At the next traffic light both car are stopped beside each other, then the whife look to the other car and tell her "hey ! the driver is a guy !...". No problem for the husband who simply answer "He drives like a woman...".

So, if you don't agree with what an American does, just tell that he act like an European, it will do the job. Fine technique, btw, there are plenty of things done by French I don't like at all... Do you allow me to use your method and tell that they did like Americans? Or is this recipe "unilaterally" copyrighted? ;D

Here is a good read for you.

Where did the insurgents, ooh, I mean the noble Iraq resistance get chemical warfare shells that do not exist?

"!...". No problem for the husband who simply answer "He drives like a woman..."."

Your cute little joke gets to the heart of the mattter. America changed on 9-11. You French do not believe it. It is why you don't understand us, I think. It is why you keep pissing us off, time after time, no matter your intentions. Because you can't get it through your thick skulls that America has changed. This is one of those points where cultures clash. You can't understand our thinking by applying French values to it. We are not French. We are not bound by our history at every turn, as much as you wish it were so.

I do not defend the Rumsfeld trip. At least we stopped supporting Saddam eventually, unlike France. That is my point. You refuse to see it, whatever, we disagree then.

On my side, we have proof that Chirac tried to give Saddam nuclear weapons.

A nuclear plant, around the 1980's. The US had no problem with that (Irak was also your "friend") and actually criticized the Israel raid. Maybe not a wise thing to do looking back, but don't draw such conclusions.

It is why you don't understand us, I think. It is why you keep pissing us off, time after time, no matter your intentions.

Replace "us" with the Middle East and much of the world, and you have it, that's the sad fact.

WMD Found

Even from the BBC Eniglish Language voice of European agitprop.

And btw, at least the Arabs don't pretend to be our friends. France is our enemy. This much is clear. That is the point of this thread. Saying you have a lot of company does not change it.

Pierre says: So, if you don't agree with what an American does, just tell them they act like an European, it will do the job

Conversely, if the French do not like what the Americans do, tell them they must become more like Europeans.

Case in point, Colombani’s little "Tous Non-Américains ?" editorial in Le Monde last week.

! Car l'Amérique doit s'européaniser is how he said it.

--------------
Zoomerx says: p.s. Why did you turn into an asshole, andy?

Umm, just trying to, well, become more European. ;)

De-programmer

I don't conceed that Reagan supported Saddam at all. Pierre's link doesn't even show America supporting Saddam. It talks of trucks and helecopters and grain. The helicopters were civilian type. His link shows ample evidence of Saddam trying in vain to have them converted to military use by third parties.

Reagan investigating ''what ifs'' pertaining to the shut down of Iraq imports by act of war with Iran and Syria is a prudent action. Hardly support of Saddam, it is more a support of the European and Japanese consumer of Oil (we didn't import much from Saddam even back then).

Sale of bio samples and chemicals were not restricted by our government at that time. Due to Saddam, America's policy is to restrict imports of chemicals and bio samples that can be made into weapons.

The fact is the Soviets never stopped arming Saddam. The Russians were the leading salesman of arms to Iraq, with the French and Chinese a distant second and third.

Doc Jonathan if your a psychologist, could you show me your diploma?
And, if your rates are reasonable, I have this nervous tic that you might help me with. It only happens when I am watching the NBA on TNT.

And btw, at least the Arabs don't pretend to be our friends. France is our enemy.

Well, you treat Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt as "friends", don't you? And you have good reasons to do so. As far as France being an "enemy", you're talking like a 5 year old spoiled brat who can't get his way, and often viewed as such.

"brat who can't get his way"

Oh yeah, that's right, I forgot that the French Veto kept Saddam in power.

Besides, you took my quote out of context to spin it for your puerile argument. My original point was that France refuses to recognize the changes that happened here on 9-11. OBL won some of his aruments that day.

Well, you treat Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt as "friends", don't you? And you have good reasons to do so.

If you want to evaluate the US foreign policies toward the aforementioned countries, you must first ask if the policies favor the realization of our desired objectives in the Middle East, and, secondly, if those objectives correspond to the interest of the United States. It doesn’t take a genius (hence Zoomerx’s ability to make the connection (that was a joke)) to figure out why we do consider them as friends.

So, since Zoomerx can see the worth of having those countries as “friends”, perhaps he can see the “non-worth” of needing France in US policy at this time. Not in the future (we may need you again, or, you may need us again), nor in the past, but now.

Because right now, it would appear that the prime objective of French foreign policy is “containment” of the US. If that is your foreign policy at this point in history, the United States can not afford to consider France anything but an “enemy” at this time.

If the US is talking like a “5 year old spoiled brat” then France is talking like an older brother who is jealous because mom brought a new kid home from the hospital, and who will do anything to impress mom by knocking the new child.

101st comment

Salute

I admit it when I am wrong. I will say this. It is now apparent to me how differently the French consider the two terms "Friend" and "Ally". It explains much about their behavior, IMHO.

The UK is a "friend and ally", meaning that we can disagree with them on occasion without believing that they want the worst for us. France was for a while an "ally" the same way Stalin was an "ally". We needed them to defeat a worse enemy, but we will never again believe that France wants the best for the US.

In this regard your five-year old child barb does sting. We were naiive about the relationship between the US and France, Statue of Libery, Lafayette Square, etc.. and all this time you were biding your time for your moment to strike.

"As I contemplate the mindset that must be behind the creation of a website dedicated solely to bashing a particular country, even one whose politics with whom you completely disagree, I am 99% certain that I am wasting my time by writing this."

"Are you personally a moron? I guess then that you will not be insulted if I call you one. Are you peronally a brainwashed lefty suffering from low self esteem who identifies a bit too strongly with that passel of losers we call Europe?"

I should trust my first instincts more often.

Jonathon,
The paragraph you quote was in written in response to this:
"I for one, am neither a sadist nor a KKK member, and as a result do not feel personally offended by that cartoon."

"I should trust my first instincts more often."

Your first instinct was to imply that we were Klansmen and sadists if we were offended by the cartoon. By your own rules, you don't believe you are a moron, so you shouldn't have been offended. Of course, by your response, it appears you were offended. I leave it to others to draw the obvious conclusion.

"I DON'T partake in the very stupid and elementary anti-Americanism" that has infected some parts of Europe, said the former Spanish prime minister, Jose Maria Aznar, as he met with San Francisco journalists Friday. Superpowers have been hated throughout history, he added. Porque? Because they're superpowers.

San Francisco Chronicle

A European talks a little sense, for once.

France was for a while an "ally" the same way Stalin was an "ally". We needed them to defeat a worse enemy, but we will never again believe that France wants the best for the US.

When in doubt, always refer to WW2 Vichy France... As far as France not being an "ally", I guess the American Revolution, the Cuban missile crisis, Lebanon, Kosovo, Irak 1991, Haiti, Afghanistan and other areas of cooperation you don't even know about is not enough. You need total blind commitment, no questions asked. Sorry but you can't always have it your way, I think you're learning that the hard way.

We were naiive about the relationship between the US and France, Statue of Libery, Lafayette Square, etc.. and all this time you were biding your time for your moment to strike.

As if Lafayette could foresee today's events. You're talking nonsense.

I guess the American Revolution, the Cuban missile crisis, Lebanon, Kosovo, Irak 1991, Haiti, Afghanistan and other areas of cooperation you don't even know about is not enough. (bolding mine)

Do you have “secret” information that the rest of us in America are not privy to, or are you assuming that, as Americans, well, we just wouldn’t know? Either way, please enlighten us with whatever it is we “don’t even know about”.

Sorry but you can't always have it your way, I think you're learning that the hard way.

Is France “learning” anything as well? Many of the French posters here seem surprised at the consequences of the French acts. You all seem somewhat surprised that the US has had a flare up of hatred toward France. Did you all believe that France could continue their “foreign” policy without any retaliation from the US? Why blame us, you all shout. Do you seriously not know why we do not consider you a friend?

There was an interesting comment in Washington Times today about the meeting that Frances Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie had yesterday in Brussels with her European Union NATO counterparts.

Diplomats said the possibility of NATO taking over command of the multinational force led by Poland is “remote” because of the “mounting bloodshed and prisoner-abuse scandal”. OK, we knew that was coming but this contradicts what they were also quoted as saying: that they were “unlikely to back a NATO role in Iraq before the US presidential elections in November”. Oh, yeah, now we see what the REAL reason is……

Do you have “secret” information that the rest of us in America are not privy to, or are you assuming that, as Americans, well, we just wouldn’t know? Either way, please enlighten us with whatever it is we “don’t even know about”.

I'm saying that there is more "behind the scene" that you and I don't know fully about - intel exchange, etc...

Did you all believe that France could continue their “foreign” policy without any retaliation from the US?

Like what? Renaming Freedom Fries and boycotting wine?

Why blame us, you all shout. Do you seriously not know why we do not consider you a friend?

Yes, why blame us? You got Saddam but no WMD. What about the entire Middle East including Turkey, are they "with you"? Germany? Russia? China? So we're not "friends", fine, it's not the first time. We remain, like it or not, "allies". The reality is that it's not in our mutual interest not to be.

What else to expect from a conglomerate of persons who's most interested in denying us the basic values of freedom, self-determination and justice. They think they know better than we do. French politicians and their elitist friends continually conspire with the terrorist factions to kill our friends, siblings, parents and children here and abroad. They like nothing better than to cripple our economy, weaken our military and create doubt in our institutions.

They don't like that this country was founded by individuals they deem "undesireable"

They don't like it that we continue to perservere despite their best efforts so far

They don't like it that we choose to do thing in our own lives that they don't approve

This is at the heart of their alliance with the terrorists. Old Europe is the place where of the scourges of the 19th and 20th Centuries - Marxism, Nazism, Fascism, Terrorism and Anti-Americanism - first materialized. We make the mistake when trying to look to Europe as a model. We are not Europeans. We are different. Better. More positive when we are self-ruling. Europe is the continent where it deemed OK to kill or hate someone of a different nationality. Where tribalism is considered a part of their sporting experience. Look at their hooligans: busting up bars and restaurants. Firebombing cars. Threatening women and children. So-called political rallies are no different. They have exported those ideas to different areas of the world and we see the results of that. At the heart of their disdain for us is the fact that a nation that was populated in the centuries by groups of people who were the "undesireables" from Europe, Asia and elsewhere have managed to grow and proper. They would rather that those who were liberated from their serfdom and their descendents remain under serfdom. Since it would now be difficult to do immediately, they're trying to do it slowly.

I, for one, will never recognize a Queen, King, prince, princess or emperor as a ruler. I have no interest in who in what royal family is marrying. That's their problem. We don't want their problems. It's time that we begin untangling those entanglements George Washington warned us about in his Farewell Address. That's also why we can't trust our sovereignty to the UN, the same institution who would give Fidel Castro and Robert Mugabe a platform. It was a mistake in our part to agree to this madness. That would give any despot or autocrat the leeway into threatening our way of life. Including the EU.

It's time for the State Department to issue travel restrictions for travelling to France, even if it may seem unnecesary now. It's also time to kick our their ambassador from Washington. He's up to no good. This is the best way of bringing the point home about how France represents a threat because our stupid press will not investigate the French ambassador and how he's involved in espionage and other activities designed to undermine our national security. It's time that our government wake up and do the right thing for the people.

Pro-freedom. Pro-progress. Pro-American. Pro-political incorrectness.

but if we don't have the French ambassador in Washington, who will we brag for? What good would it be to have the greatest nation with the most civilized people on Earth if, we don't get to tweek the French ambassador's ear showing him?

France has admitted the 35 hour work week was a disaster. Lassas Faire is presenting terms for the French surrender to economic reality.

What else to expect from a conglomerate of persons who's most interested in denying us the basic values of freedom, self-determination and justice. They think they know better than we do. French politicians and their elitist friends continually conspire with the terrorist factions to kill our friends, siblings, parents and children here and abroad. They like nothing better than to cripple our economy, weaken our military and create doubt in our institutions.

Comical. You can't be serious. Are you?

Pro-freedom. Pro-progress. Pro-American. Pro-political incorrectness.

... and an idiot.

France has admitted the 35 hour work week was a disaster.

I knew it from the start.

Nobody's perfect, right pro-"freedom"?

Zoomer

I knew it from the start.

Why didn't you write your congressman and tell him?

Get your picket signs ready to counter the protesting labor unions. Bad spot of luck having so many socialists in office.

Zoomer

One other thing; WMD FOUND!

Wow! One leftover bomb. That was worth all the trouble, congratulations.

Next stop, North Korea?

Kay, in a telephone interview with The Associated Press, said he doubted the shell or the nerve agent came from a hidden stockpile, although he didn't rule out that possibility.

Former U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix, speaking to the AP in Sweden, agreed the shell was likely a stray weapon scavenged from a dump and did not signify that Iraq had large stockpiles.

A stray?

Iraq never declared any binary 155mm artillery shells. In fact, they never claimed any filled with sarin at all in the UNSCOM Final report (Find on "Munitions declared by Iraq as remaining"). Not declared as existing at the end of the Gulf War, not having been destroyed in the Gulf War, not having been destroyed unilaterally. The only binary munitions claimed by the Iraqis were aerial bombs and missile warheads. Not in an artillery shell.

This means that this munition is a post Gulf War arti shell that Saddam was manufacturing in secret under the nose of Hans, Ritter, and the rest of the incompetent surface lookers in the UN.

From the David Kay report we have:

Let me turn now to chemical weapons (CW). In searching for retained stocks of chemical munitions, ISG has had to contend with the almost unbelievable scale of Iraq's conventional weapons armory, which dwarfs by orders of magnitude the physical size of any conceivable stock of chemical weapons. For example, there are approximately 130 known Iraqi Ammunition Storage Points (ASP), many of which exceed 50 square miles in size and hold an estimated 600,000 tons of artillery shells, rockets, aviation bombs and other ordinance. Of these 130 ASPs, approximately 120 still remain unexamined. As Iraqi practice was not to mark much of their chemical ordinance and to store it at the same ASPs that held conventional rounds, the size of the required search effort is enormous.

So there are unmarked CW rounds mixed in with conventional HP rounds in about 120 ammo dumps. All of which Saddam claimed never to have existed.

I must say that this is bad news for me. Because to me the war was never about WMD, rather it is because stable democratic countries don't fly jumbo jets into office buildings. The WMD meme was a vain attempt to win you fellows over to the side of righteousness. A fools erand, judging by your jump to discredit this iron clad proof that your last anti-war talking point is hollow.

All this means to me, is that our boys will have to contend with the possiblity of instant invisible death while fighting insurgents.
I was always convinced of the justification and necessity of the war. I thought it was a mistake we didn't take down Saddam in the first Gulf War.

It has become obvious in recent years, as the internet has provided a view into the European press that we Americans never had before, that France has embarked on a new forray into the centuries old conflict between the Anglo-Saxons and the French.

Before the internet, when I was in Sydney, for example, if I wanted a copy of the New York Times, it cost $15 and was at least a week old. Now I can read whatever anti-US calumny Le Monde prints the same day. This has a lot to do with why we have noticed the emnity of the French people only recently, and why the French seem so surprised at our offense. They have been talking this way since the Suez Crisis at least, if not since the European discovery of the new world.

You can talk about Lafayette, and in the same breath say that democracy cannot be brought at the point of a gun without irony. This is amazing to us.

You can believe that, despite the fact that we found two sarin shells, and a mustard gas shell, disguiesed as conventional artillery that these are the only shells that exist. A position which requires a profound ignorance of statistics and a level of credulity usually not seen outside of pre-school.

I will agree that Lafayette did not forsee France's turning on the US. However, I maintain that France's whole, hoped-for position of "counterweight" to the US amounts to more than occasional disagreement among friends. It amounts, with Kyoto, and the World Court, to a way to weaken the US, reducing our freedom of action, "enlisement", while strengthening the French position.

Even this is well and good so far, until you get to the part about how France is willing to put the safety of the US at risk, and look the other way at genocide to accomplish her ends. That is what makes France an enemy. You can point to South America all you want. Notice that except for French Guyana and Cuba, South America now consists entirely of independent democracies. Whatever you may believe about our motives there.

Calling us morons does not actually answer any of these points, except to a moron.

Saddam Confesses to Bribing Heads of State

Here is a story that probably caused Chirac at least a spit take over his corn flakes.

"I DON'T partake in the very stupid and elementary anti-Americanism" that has infected some parts of Europe, said the former Spanish prime minister, Jose Maria Aznar, as he met with San Francisco journalists Friday. Superpowers have been hated throughout history, he added. Porque? Because they're superpowers"

For saying this kind of things, spanish press called Aznar "Bush dog", "fascist" and other accomplishments.

Unfortunately, just a voice in the Sahara.

They have been talking this way since the Suez Crisis

Nonsense, drive-by. I'm afraid some of your preconceived ideas about France are getting in the way, seriously.

You can point to South America all you want.

Liberia, Uganda etc.., Phillipines, Indonesia, Vietnam, Haiti....

Notice that except for French Guyana and Cuba, South America now consists entirely of independent democracies.

Struggling democracies, some of them. French Guyana is an oversea French territory, same as Western Samoa is also a democratic US territory.

Calling us morons does not actually answer any of these points

I did not call you a moron. I said from the begining Le Monde's cartoon was stupid. The KKK reference was completely out of context.

I sense Zoomer is having an epiphany.

Lets give the guy a minute fellas.

Speaking of epiphany, did you know about this?

Apparently, Saddam had other friends other than Chirac...

So Zoomer, giving money to a church and bribing politicians is the same thing?

Let me answer for you: Hardly.

-----------
Finding artillery shells containing sarin gas and mustard gas (even if they are old, luckily) only shows (no matter what Mr. Blix said) that we do not know what happened to Saddams WMD.

Well, for that matter we don’t know what happened to the OIL-FOR-FRAUD money either.

Zoomer,
So exactly when did Chirac break with Saddam?

So Zoomer, giving money to a church and bribing politicians is the same thing?

No. My point is that you have to look at things in context before accusing Chirac of shaking Saddam's hand in 74 and building him a reactor in 80 (bad move I admit). Before you make innuendos, look at your own actions. You were giving him the red carpet. You didn't know he was a tyran? Give me a break.

As for bribing Chirac, are there names named? Wait and see.

Finding artillery shells containing sarin gas and mustard gas (even if they are old, luckily) only shows (no matter what Mr. Blix said) that we do not know what happened to Saddams WMD.

You can say that again. Chances are they were destroyed after 91. Even Powell is having doubts now.

So exactly when did Chirac break with Saddam?

Don't know. You make it sound like they had a love affair.

Chirac once called Saddam a 'personal friend' and sold him a reactor which he knew would have provided weapons grade material. At some point he must have renounced him and taken action on that basis, according to you anyway. Since you are the one that believes Chirac renounced the relationship, I want to know when it happened.

The US renounced the relationship when Saddam invaded Kuwait. We should have done it sooner, but I have already told you how I feel about Bush Sr. France stood behind him even after he was dragged out of the rat hole he was hiding in. Or so it appears to us. Set me straight.

"I'm afraid some of your preconceived ideas about France are getting in the way, seriously."

I could find dozens of cartoons as offensive as the one posted here regardging the US in MAJOR French media. Find one that is nearly as nasty regarding France in the MAJOR US Media. Personal blogs do not count.

I am really curious to see what has been written in the US media that is so untrue and offensive that you would compare it to what we see in the French media.

Oh yeah, here is another story for you to read about the "other methods" to remove Saddam.

U.N. auditors fault oil-for-food monitor

Just curious, is this story in Le Monde? I couldn't find it. I guess that they figured that you didn't need to know about it, since it would needlessly worry you about the viability of the UN as an alternative to war. Of course you Europeans are better informed than us, so maybe they just assumed you already knew.

You guys had your chance to try other methods, and you blew it, for money. War for oil? How about torture, murder, and terror for bribes?

Ten years ago the French press could have prevented you from ever hearing this stuff. If you think your press is so great, stop reading blogs and forget your English.

France stood behind him even after he was dragged out of the rat hole he was hiding in. Or so it appears to us. Set me straight.

That's a lie. You're making this into some kind of personal relationship. True, we all know France had financial interests in Irak (which only represented .02% of their foreign trade, btw), and a long time business "relashionship" which ended in 1991 after the Irak war (sales of weapons), but please, please don't be a hypocrite and act like a saint. Mopttop, that's the problem with how the US is often perceived around the world: often meaning well, often lecturing others wrapping yourself around God and the flag , but oh so hypocritical when it suits your own interests (Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for example, you figure it out).

I am really curious to see what has been written in the US media that is so untrue and offensive that you would compare it to what we see in the French media.

Lots of things. French-made WMD's in Irak: big news in the US before the invasion. Where are they? French passports issued to Iraki officials: they found a few forged passports, no Iraki officials have ever flown to France (one magazine even suggested Saddam would be harboured by France). French missiles found by Polish troops: big story in the US media, later retracted by the Polish government (and fired its spokesperson). Did the US media cared to retract the story? I doubt it. There was a story about the French Ambassador in the US who tried to buy a full page in the Washington Post (or some major newspaper) exposing reported lies and explaining France's position but was turned down... Come on moptop, you'll do anything to discredit France. Again, you're being hypocritical.

War for oil? Do you have names yet? Maybe you're right. We'll see.

Zoomer

I remember the French missle story. You make it sound like these were not French missles. They were. The only discrepency was in the date of manufacture. How would I know this if it was not retracted?
France deals with these "scoundrels" Pakistan and Saudi Arabia without blush. Why shouldn't we? You have any surplus submarines lying around gathering dust? (Planning any new Nuclear reactor sales?)
We hear stories of stolen French travel documents from several different times and places. Never reported as "a few", always reported as tens of thousands. I haven't heard of tens of thousands of stolen French passports being recovered. If you can update us on this story, then you will have scooped the "bias" American media.
Would you even notice if an Iraqi official flew to France? With all these thousands of blank French passports floating around? I highly doubt it.

If we "need" to discredit France, that need is well served by the actions of your country.

The only discrepency was in the date of manufacture.

Proof that France wasn't selling weapons to Irak. It's relevant, when you look at all the accusations that were pointed at France regarding "French-made" WMD's. The Polish spokesperson was fired.

France deals with these "scoundrels" Pakistan and Saudi Arabia without blush. Why shouldn't we?

They do, that's my point. We often "look the other way". We know these regimes are far from pro-west and are harboring fanatics.

Would you even notice if an Iraqi official flew to France?

An high official wanted by the US, during the Iraki conflict? Of course it would be known. I'm sure the US would find out, it would be too good.

Zoomer raising the bar to high official wanted by the US with red hair and a limp would increase the probablity of detection even further. Even Clouseau will be able to pick him out inspite of the most clever passport forgery.

But you raise a point about our contentious relationship that deserves further study. The role of media in stories.

The story is the thing. As long as a headline garners attention it doesn't matter if it is wrong, or if it once was right but that situations have changed. Newspapers only seek to gain attention, not to inform the public.

Lets say your Stolen French passports were recovered and the theif apprehended? What if he turned out to be a file clerk at the customs office and he is awaiting trial for pedaling the passports on a corner. Would this be sensational enough to be picked up by American news?

Maybe not. I would hope so because bad guys given free range due to French passports would be a bad thing for all of us. But to a newsman, public safety or Government reputation is secondary if nonexistent as a consideration to whether a story is ''newsworthy''. He is looking for that catchy headline. If Micheal Moore was picked up with a phony passport it would be front page, gauranteed.

There is a good post on this subject at Belmont club.
Also from a different angle toward the same vector at Blog Maverick.

"True, we all know France had financial interests in Irak (which only represented .02% of their foreign trade, btw)"

You deny the existence of contracts, amounting to hundreds of billions of dollars, for the exclusive exploitation by TotalFinaElf of 25% of Iraqs known reserves? All Chirac had to do to cash in was keep Saddam in power and get the sanctions lifted. So quit lying about .02%.

I'm not lying. The US media exagerated France's dependence on Irak oil.

As for the Elf/Fina/Total contracts, there was nothing illegal, but you make a point I'm willing to accept (don't think that Enron wasn't eying these contracts too, they were at one point in a consortium with Elf/Fina and other foreign companies in Irak). And what if 9/11 and the hunt for WMD had never happened?

Interesting links, Papertiger.

The passeport story was vehementely denied by the French ambassador, btw.

Enron

I meant Exxon.

My point was that France had a strong economic interest in looking the other way at how Iraq was run.

Why do you think that France and the UN insisted tha the sanctions remained on Iraq, even after Saddam was gone? Continuing the "Oil for Food" program.

You can find this kind of cartoon all over Europe. Heck, you probably can find them in newspapers all over the world. It's not just the French who think the current US government has made some unwise decissions. (To put it mildly) These cartoons are the result of the US government inflaming the world against it self.
(Recent polls in Europe show islamic extremists are seen as less of a threat to world peace than the current US administration and its foreign policies)Perhaps it's time to rename your website to pave the world?

Pave the world - Zoomer needs parking.

Recent polls in Europe show islamic extremists are seen as less of a threat to world peace than the current US administration and its foreign policies

This just shows how many Muslims have immigrated into Europe.

"It's not just the French who think the current US government has made some unwise decissions."

I ask you for an honest answer here. Was there ever a time, since Bush was the Republican nominee for president, that Europeans gave him an honest chance?

What is so weak about this argument is that it amounts to this: "We all agree so we must be right!", rather than "Bush and America are wrong because of A, B and C which will have this or that consequence based on a reading of history".

That is why we pay so little attention to what you "think". It looks more like groupthink than rational thought.

For instance, I can write this post with perfect confidence that not one European will come up with an argument that does not boil down to this: "We all think you are stupid and evil", or this: "European safety, especially my personal safety, is far more important than the human rights of brown people", or to be fair, this absurd declaration: "If you do not defeat every tryant at once, you are a hypocrit."

Speaking of offensive carttons, has anyone read The Guardian today?

Jonathan - I'm a jelly donut

Pierre - First, I want to thank you for the effort you put into a fairly extensive post. I have to admit disappointment though in how - almost reflexively - you avoided every question I considered central in trying to understand your position. Starting with your very first statement -

Sometime comparison shows analogy, sometimes it shows differences or absolute opposition.

One word I would use to describe a comparison devoid of any analogy is "useless". Otherwise, why not compare the war to a bran muffin, the Dalai Lama, geometry, or pension plans? The comparison was -

Just compare then Israeli and American methods and results...

Now, the only possible reason I could imagine for comparing two solutions is that the problems were analagous. Why compare solutions to totally different problems?

I had no answer for that, but I didn't want to place my assumptions into your argument. In order to understand exactly which parts you considered analagous then, I asked rather specificly - and you tell me that the reason you compared their solutions has nothing to do with the problems. In fact, you say that you don't even know what problem the war was intended to address. Can I ask then - what was the point of the comparison? I have some confidence that you're not just randomly typing words and phrases, but this attempt of mine at eliciting linear thought is already testing it.

The permanent threatening situation of israel and the ponctual humiliation of 9/11 gave to both country the obligation to fight back. That was clear and obvious like the nose in the middle of the face.

This was the analogy, some liked or disliked Bush or sharon. Some where pro this or anti that. But every body knew that like Isreael had to fight for her existance USA had to show that the murder of 3000 of her citizens could not be accepted.

Where did you get the idea that the Iraq invasion was a response to 9-11? Was this idea given to you, or did something lead you to this as a conclusion?

Analogy stops here to become a total opposition. While it is still easy to understand Israel's action, NO WAY to understand the motivations to start suddenly while the Afghan step was still to be acomplished a new frontline in Iraq. At the beginig all was about WMD WMD and WMD, proofs and evidence, clamed again and again but never shown. As WMD concern was the trigger for the Israeli raid on Osirak, the comparison come by itself:
On one side
No talk, Ponctual action and then results and proofs

On the other
Big noise, Big military operation and victory and one year later proofs and results still to come.

Again - if the problems aren't analagous, I don't see the point in comparing the methods. Why not apply Israel's methods to European unemployment? No talk, punctual action, and then jobs? Because they're completely different types of problems. There's nothing you can bomb to fix it. Hmm... now my imagination's tingling...

I'm not sure what "punctual action" there was that would address Iraq as the US war did; there was no target that could be bombed for that, not even assassination of Saddam. There was the potential of other, longer paths, but they were choked off.

I'll be contrary to this extent - there were continual proofs shown over the course of 12 years (and the prior 15 as well, it could be argued) - but I suppose the question comes down to what you wanted proof of.

Anyone can tell anything about your motivatons to go in Iraq, depanding upon conviction and wishes it can be oil, personal interests of Mr Cheney and co, spreading democracy and human rights, Internal politic agenda, WOT, some could even try to keep on talking about WMD...

But who the hell can really understand ???

So is this an integral part - that there's a jumble of sub-topics and you're not really sure how they integrate into the issue?

Where did you get the idea that the Iraq invasion was a response to 9-11? Was this idea given to you, or did something lead you to this as a conclusion?

It's certainly perceived that way, with good reasons, and by a majority of Americans as well I would add. A US poll early this year indicated that 3 out of 5 American beleived Iraki nationals were on the 9/11 planes... (even 1 out of 5 is just as troubling). I have no doubt that most of this French-bashing is a result of Americans seeing Irak as responsible for 9/11 and France doing nothing to help them.

Sorry, I meant to italicize the first paragraph.

It's certainly perceived that way, with good reasons, and by a majority of Americans as well I would add. A US poll early this year indicated that 3 out of 5 American beleived Iraki nationals were on the 9/11 planes... (even 1 out of 5 is just as troubling). I have no doubt that most of this French-bashing is a result of Americans seeing Irak as responsible for 9/11 and France doing nothing to help them.

I don't doubt that it's percieved that way - so much anti-war rhetoric is predicated on the notion that this must be a real perception. I just have no idea how people achieve that perception, which is why I asked.

Since I don't have 3 of 5 Americans handy I thought I'd ask Pierre (and if I did ask them, experience has shown that an alarming number would likely use it as a pretext to spout rhetoric while paying no regard to actually answering the question, as you have. I ask Pierre because I believe he's less likely to do that).