The French never miss an occasion to mock fat dopey Americans. As we toddle to our graves, they laugh. With higher levels of serum cholesterol, they flaunt their lower rate of heart attack. They are inordinately proud of their longer life expectancy (79.28 years compared to the American 77.14).
But France is a shriveling nation. Its population growth rate is a puny .42%. Slim Pierre slathers camembert on everything in sight, but has forgotten to reproduce. At .92%, randy Americans are having more than twice the fun.
Not everything in France is petite or diminishing, the government has been waddling around pathologically obese for decades.
And like the fat lady who begins her diet by forswearing celery, France looks to the salad tray of government to drop a few pounds by shedding some 350 "consultative administrative commissions":
France's famously bloated state apparatus boasts, it seems, an astonishing 20,000 such bodies [which makes the proposed sloughing an atomic 1.75%]. They include 645 commissions advising the various government ministries, and a generous 198 each for the senior state representative - or prefect - in all 100 départements.Each having up to 40 members, and generally meeting once a year, they range from undeniably useful Commission on Access to Official Documents and Council for Economic Analysis to the rather less obvious National Poplar Commission, National Council on Cold Weather, Permanent Commission on Military Service (something that no longer exists in France), and Commission for Unprotected Church Organs.
But this is not unlike a regimen of haircuts in hopes of losing 40 pounds in time for next week's bikini contest. The big girl's problem lies elsewhere:
In France, the state employs a little over a quarter of the entire workforce, compared with around 14% or 15% in Britain or Germany. However, despite constant moaning about the taxes levied to pay for it, the French have long been unwilling to re-examine its role - and becoming a job-for-life fonctionnaire, with all its associated privileges, remains a widely-held Gallic ambition. ... According to a report published in 2002, only 26 civil servants were fired throughout the 90s.
The French workforce is not the most inspirited to begin with, but French public sector employees are even less so:
Gallup calculated the percentages within the total French workforce for three categories of employees: 12% are "engaged," or loyal, productive, and psychologically committed to their work; 57% are "not engaged" employees who aren’t psychologically committed to their roles; and 31% are "actively disengaged," or disenchanted with their workplaces.The percentage of actively disengaged employees is a matter of particular concern, as it is the highest among the 11 nations that Gallup has surveyed.
Another key finding is that public-sector employees have a higher level of active disengagement (39%) than do private-sector employees (27%). With more than one in five French employees (22%) working in the public sector, this 12 percentage-point difference is meaningful.
[All emphases added.]
A number of French Cassandras wander the periphery of French talk-show consciousness giving the lie to boojie entitlements, state gigantism, and preening rayonnement.
[T]he French mission to be a light unto the world has failed. The Anglo-Saxons are taking over and without urgent - and possibly violent - shock treatment, the nation that invented [sic] human rights, cheese and Charles de Gaulle is headed for oblivion.According to [Nicolas Baverez, La France Qui Tombe], France's chronic inability to reform itself means that it is now facing the challenges of a post-Cold War, post-September 11, globalised 21st century with systems and habits of mind conditioned by events more than 25 years ago.
Don’t expect things to change with Jack’s depleted presidency. After the spanking the UMP took in the regional March elections PM Raffarin was left in place only to fall on the sword of reform. Then Jack can shrug and plead he did his best.
not your business.
Peruvian writer Mario Vargas Llosa dwelt nostalgically on his memories of the vibrant Paris scene of the 1950s, then lamented what he said was the country's growing introversion.
"If there is a sickness in France it is nationalism. It has found a place at every social and political level... But this defence of identity, this idea of the 'cultural exception' which is so widespread is totally provincial. For me it is the negation, the death of universalism," he wrote.
When a pro-French writer says something like this, you know something is wrong in that cuntry. It does explain in part the hostility towards our free nation on their part. The French want nothing else but to kill us, even to the point of sheltering and sponsoring terrorists. Strip away all the political correctness and protocol and you have the rotten core that has existed through the centuries.
Also, French Anti-Americanism and French Anti-Angloism are basically the same. They have always regarded the Brits as unhuman. Because the UK and the U.S. have settled their differences long ago, it has been the source of disdain on the part of their elites. They despise the fact that the two nations have managed to overcome differences in culture and outlook to form the strongest alliance in history in the name of true freedom; paid for many times with the sacrifice and valor of warriors from both nations. At first, when reading up on the wars fought between the UK and France, I couldn't comprehend how the two nations could be involved in so much conflict. Today, it's now all clear. Britain will not tolerate being told what to do by the French. The ironic thing is that the French want Tony Blair to go when it's Blair who originally wanted no referendum on a document which would essentially surrender British sovereignty to the EU, led by the cabal of France and Germany (and even Spain, with the Socialist Zapatero). Now that he reversed course, he may still save his job in the end, though it's not guaranteed.
I don't like everything about the Brits and they certainly don't like everything about us but I can certainly respect them, for they have stood with us time and time when the time called for it. The French wish nothing but ill will for both nations, sugarcoated with political correctness to hide their true intentions, only to let the game be up during that inopportune time. This is why we must remain strong: to fight terrorists and to counteract their sponsors, including the French.
Pro-Freedom. Pro-progress. Pro-American. Pro-political incorrectness.
Pro-fondément stupide
"The French want nothing else but to kill us"
Yes, with toothpicks.
"They have always regarded the Brits as unhuman"
Sure, but it's all about food.
"The French wish nothing but ill will for both nations"
Do you envisage a therapy?
Max
I don't think all you want to do is kill us. You don't, do you?
lol
Maybe you wouldn't mind if we drop dead, but you aren't actively trying to push. You aren't, right?
lol
Sometimes it is hard to tell.
At 92%, randy Americans are having more than twice the fun.
And twice the consequences...
This is why we must remain strong: to fight terrorists and to counteract their sponsors, including the French.
Would you care to elaborate with facts (France sponsors terrorism), or are you really insane?
Have you ever traveled outside your town?
The French never miss an occasion to mock fat dopey Americans. As we toddle to our graves, they laugh. With higher levels of serum cholesterol, they flaunt their lower rate of heart attack. They are inordinately proud of their longer life expectancy (79.28 years compared to the American 77.14).
Classic Pave. Why don't you send us a link where the French are "mocking" you and bragging about these facts (that's how you make it sound) instead of turning this into some inane French anti-American tirade? This is getting really boring folks.
Pro
Come on. Lets not get over the top. You step over the line accusing the French of sponsoring terrorism (at least in the US).
Here they are tossing a terror goon out of the country, that makes two of these Imam dudes they gave the boot in the span of a week.
Next week President Bush will be recommending action in the Sudan. This will be a good test. Lets see if France objects in order to gain points with the Arabs.
Its population growth rate is a puny 42%. (...)At 92%, randy Americans are having more than twice the fun.
How about correctly reporting numbers (as in 0.42 and 0.92%)? Otherwise, let's brace for 85 millions frenchmen and 570 millions americans as soon as 2005.
Some people really seem to be at a loss with accurate data.
The French never miss an occasion to mock fat dopey Americans.
Then I guess movie director Spurlock will be made honorary French citizen after his Supersize me movie comes out.
Try this one :
http://b2evolution.net/
And congratulation for staying vigilant on imporant matter.
Hot news:
President Bush tried to remove the training wheels of Bike Force One
Zoomer,
I can't believe that you linked to a polemic by a right-winger often used as a bludgeon by other right-wingers against gay marriage. Also one that is widely discredited.
This is the problem you seem to be having when you step outside of a culture you know, into one you obviously don't know.
If you don't believe that your press is lying to you, click on this link and go to the last picture in the 'portfolio'. It has been proven to be a fake,("Sorry... We were hoaxed," read the banner headline on the front of the tabloid. for which the editor of the paper lost his job, but it is still plenty good enough for Le Monde to use as more hate speech against Americans.
Max
Thats funny.
It is also funny that Kerry is reduced to saying ''Did the training wheels fall off?'', to get a write up in the paper.
Kerry sounds desperate.
mobtop,
if you can read french, read the commentary _under_ the picture:
La "Une" du "Daily Mirror", le 1er mai 2004. Le tabloïd anglais, opposé à la guerre en Irak, a publié cinq photos truquées montrant des soldats britanniques battant et humiliant un détenu iraquien
if not, Translate it.
Max
That just explains why they put it at the bottom end of the report instead of at the front.
I'm shocked the caption doesn't read;
La récréation dramatique des abus et du humiliation allégués des prisonniers Irakiens par British s'assemble.
OK, I know my French is far from perfect, and I missed the word "truquées". Well, that's one I won't forget again. Still and all, what is the fake picture doing in a collection of real pictures? Sometimes I try to get the meaning of the word by context, and the context was of real pictures of "torture". So Sorry. You score a point.
BTW, practically every one of the real pictures is dated to the same day, Nov 8. Right after a prison uprising. Not that that justifies it, just providing a little context that you seem to be deprived of. I will agree that the prisoners under our care can be treated a bit roughly, but torture is a whole other thing, and they have chosen to fight.
no problem moptop.
for the sake of clarity, French press, and editorialists, are not anti-american, which sounds more like "French hate American people", but they are against Bush government foreign politic.
BTW, they are not found of Chirac/Raffarin government, so..
I hope the 6 june will be the D-Day of better US-France relations.
If the French don't hate us, why is the cartoon showing actual torture, even though the only evidence is of simulated torture? Why paint the whole of American with the KKK thing? Where is the evidence that the KKK ever represented anything close to even a plurality of Americans, much less a majority? Why the need to exagerate if what really happened was an 'atrocity'? What is wrong with the simple truth? Is it too complicated?
Why paint the whole of American with the KKK thing?Where is the evidence that the KKK ever represented anything close to even a plurality of Americans, much less a majority?
It's clearly written Bush Klux Klan. I think Plantu has drawn this caricature just because the scene of this hooded man tortured by US marines looks like a good ol' Knight party..press freedom, you know.
Why the need to exagerate if what really happened was an 'atrocity'?
is it really an exageration? I don't think, because all of these marines don't respect these prisoneers for what it seems to be racist reasons. The first army in the world torturing people while claiming they are saving them from a tyranic dictator, this is scary.
If you don't respect your ennemy, there is no glory in the victory, isn't it?
But again, this caricature was not against american people, I don't know why you see other references than to Bush government and his army.
We elected Bush, we like him. Half of us anyway. We want him re-elected. When you insult him as a klansman, you insult half of America since we support him we must be klansman and racists too.
"these prisoneers for what it seems to be racist reasons"
What evidence do you have of that?
I don't agree with you when you say that if you insult a politician, you insult voters behind him. I'm sure many Bush voters don't reconize themselves in Bush government anymore. It's like Lepen voters in France (15% shame on them), Lepen is a crazy dumb*ss but his voters vote for him to protest against other candidates (...it's not smart) but they are not really racist people (I concede that there are exceptions)
What evidence do you have of that?
what is the reason, so? They're just sickos.
All of the Abu Graib pictures are taken on the same day. On November 8th 2003 in the middle of the month of Ramadan there was a total lunar eclipse.
This might be nothing more then a pleasant distraction for us, but to imprisoned Jihadists in Iraq during the height of a holy war, this event is nothing short of a Miracle straight from Allah.
One day of Lunacy? That is all we are seeing here.
At 92%, randy Americans are having more than twice the fun.
And twice the consequences...
BRILLIANT Zoomer. You're Google trolling dredged up a pretty right-wing article. Is that who you're hooking your shingle with these days? Did you have some sort of political conversion in the last week? Or are you just a moron who knows how to use Google (and that's about it)?
for the sake of clarity, French press, and editorialists, are not anti-american, which sounds more like "French hate American people", but they are against Bush government foreign politic.
BTW, they are not found of Chirac/Raffarin government, so..
Bullshit. The French press / editorialists / pols raked Clinton over the coals as well. Don't try to bronze that old turd by saying "Its only Bush we hate." Anti-americanism (well, anti-capitalism really, but since we're the best at it it becomes anti-americanism) has been alive and well in France for some time now.
Yep moptop :
Why paint the whole of American with the KKK thing? Where is the evidence that the KKK ever represented anything close to even a plurality of Americans, much less a majority?
You complain here about taking the worse extremity like kkk and apply it to whole America... but isn't it all what pavefrance is about?
half a dozen idiots antisemits desecrating a cemetary => France is an anti-semitic country (despite the fact that French Jews are the largest jew community in Europe)
Like it or not but kkk, Vienam, cambodia are part of your history and you must face it as we have to face the darkest faces of our history like Robespierr's terror, Vichy, Alegeria, Vietnam (we too...) and some other (longer history => more dark parts...).
For now, Bush II and Iraq are actuality, HURRY UP to change both into history please, the sooner, the best ;)
I can't believe that you linked to a polemic by a right-winger often used as a bludgeon by other right-wingers against gay marriage. Also one that is widely discredited.
Ah.. so the US DOES NOT lead the western world in divorce and out of wedlock children? (if it's not number one, it's very close) Should I provide you with other links? You guys are amazing. Had I provided a "left leaning" link, you would have seen as "left propaganda" as well.
Classic Pave.
If the French don't hate us, why is the cartoon showing actual torture, even though the only evidence is of simulated torture? Why paint the whole of American with the KKK thing?
A tasteless daily joke that unfairly mischaracterizes another nation with an out of context portrayal? Noooooo! We don't do that in America.
You have to give credit where credit's due: Zoomer-"I'm barely literate but I know how to use Google"-ex and Pierre are dead-on about "the whole KKK thing," at least "hey, don't you paint us with a broad brush?" business. I mean, isn't that all we're here for?
My only complaint is that they're so god-awful at it. I could think of a dozen more biting / relative things I could say about the US off of the top of my head. So come one chaps, get your act together and hone those insults.
Oh, and while I'm at it can one of you do something about that smell in Paris? Last time I was there is smelled like rotting gym socks.
Because you do not wash yourself since you have pocks.
Because you do not wash yourself since you have pocks.
You see, that's just what I'm talking about. Insults should take more effort than your average fart. Lame, lame, lame!
Indeed FRB,
Oh, and while I'm at it can one of you do something about that smell in Paris? Last time I was there is smelled like rotting gym socks.
I remember a day when the smell in Paris was awfull, when was it?... I don't remember.
May be it was during your visit? ;DDD
Soory, I know, it's unfair and not funny but I could not miss this one ;)
But I sincerly liked
I could think of a dozen more biting / relative things I could say about the US off of the top of my head.
Because more than once, I was surprised to see about what secondary things you bash us here while we actually did and do loads or more serious faults... (Ah les pauvres... s'ils savaient... on serait mal.)
So, on both side, there is a shift between what we don't like in ourselves and what others don't like in us.
A carricatural example: all that mess you did about Bill Clintonhaving good time with Monica Lewinski. We could not understand that. Here, a President MUST have some adventures, if not, then he becomes suspect. (Hum... I don't know what will be the rule when the President will be a Lady...)
In other hand, someone who earn money is always supposed guilty of something by French people while In US he is just considered as someone who succeeded...
Other places, other values... Is it hat important?
Or may be what(s count is how we cultivates our own values?
Oh, and while I'm at it can one of you do something about that smell in Paris? Last time I was there is smelled like rotting gym socks.
Avoid Rue Saint Denis next time. There are better and safer spots to pick up girls.
Last time I was there is smelled like rotting gym socks.
Because you do not wash yourself since you have pocks.
--
Insults should take more effort than your average fart.
I don't want to cause trouble to your greasy heart.
I saw in my paper that the UN is sending troops to Burundi. You know, that French-speaking Central African country.
The UN forces will now expand from about 37,000 troops to 70,000 uniformed peacekeepers in 16 countries. That is pretty amazing fact. Another interesting fact: Most of those new peacekeepers will serve in French-speaking countries. I assume Burundi, Haiti and Ivory Coast. This will increase costs by an additional $1 Billion, financed 25% by USA.
Kofi “Just where is my money?” Annan said that the UN missions are being “hampered by shortages of French-speaking peace-keepers”. (Guess they don’t have anybody to take those “payoffs”;))
Hey, Max, Zoomer, Pierre and all….you guys DO SPEAK French, right????? Feel like seeing the world?
Peace Keepers? PEACE KEEPERS? The Frogs don't need no steenking peace keepers. They'll just give each side a couple nukes and everything will be hunky dory.
FRB
Them sound like fighting words to me. If you French really want a war we will oblige you.
this guy is a sicko
if he really want force balance, the wise way would be to remove nuclear weapon...
" I mean, isn't that all we're here for?"
The difference is that we don't deny what it is we are doing. We have a little community here. To be honest, the vast majority of Americans rise each day, go to work, come home have a beer or bang their spouse without once wasting a thought on the French.
The French on the other hand, have major media outlets to bash us. It is a difference too subtle for the French posters here, but one would think that an American could follow this argument.
"Teenage rape victims fleeing war in the Democratic Republic of Congo are being sexually exploited by the United Nations peace-keeping troops sent to the stop their suffering.
The Independent has found that mothers as young as 13 - the victims of multiple rape by militiamen - can only secure enough food to survive in the sprawling refugee camp by routinely sleeping with UN peace-keepers."
Wow! Is this 'torture'? Is this an 'atrocity'? I happen to think that it is worse than what those guards did to those prisoners in Iraq, yet where is the outrage?
Moptop,
Don't get me wrong, there are about a zillion things about the French culture (that includes politics) that pretty much ensure its irrelevance in the world (and I've enumerated quite a few in my rants), but Zoomer and Pierre were rigth about the two facedness of of some of the reponses to their posts.
Zoomer was dead on when he made this comment:
A tasteless daily joke that unfairly mischaracterizes another nation with an out of context portrayal? Noooooo! We don't do that in America.
(Shocking I know, but as they say, even a blind, smelly frenchman finds a nut every once in a while)
If you're going to take potshots at the Frogs, you have to expect some potshots back. Complaining about them, as opposed to refuting them, just makes you look like, well, a whiny Frenchman.
To be honest, the vast majority of Americans rise each day, go to work, come home have a beer or bang their spouse without once wasting a thought on the French.
The French on the other hand, have major media outlets to bash us.
Sure our media are bashing the US all day long, and vast majority of French rise each day to bash Americans, go to work thinking how to bash you more, come home have an anti-american wine or bang their spouse to ensure a new generation of anti-american. To go further, we have the project to create a ministry of anti-americanism and remove all the others to concentrate on what we're all made for, bashing America.
..vast majority of French has more interest in gardening than thinking about president Bush motricity troubles.
Hey FRB, is that all you're able to? A chimpanzee would have more repartee.
That is why you can find bash America stuff in the French press most days, and bash France stuff in the America's press only rarely.
The French on the other hand, have major media outlets to bash us.
If you tae any critic or carricature mocking Mr Bush as global American-bashing, then almost all media all over the world is deeply involved into it. Including the American medias who currently write certainly much more critics on yur current administraton than all others put together.
Are the American journalists and readers more anti-American than all others ?
Or, simply the problem is not about who you are (American) but what you did with this neo-con war in Iraq, not so many errors, just one : having started it.
So, if all echoes are negatives there can be two resons:
1) Mr Bush and his team are absolute genious and are to worldwide politic better than what Albert Einstein was to physic. Almost divinities. So, off, course the remaining of the world and their poor newspaper cannot understand how brillant is the American current policy. Or...
2) Mr Bush and his thinkers team simply made the same error than so many Europeans in the past, thinking that with some nice priciples and ideals, a bit of self interest and a powerfull army it is possible to change the world from what it is to what they would like.
See what seems more realistic and compare with what is currently going on on the field.
If Bush is a genius, I can lick my bend.
That is why you can find bash America stuff in the French press most days, and bash France stuff in the America's press only rarely.
I completely disagree. It depends on your definition of "bashing". The French have been "bashing" your foreign policy on Iraq, fair to say. On the other hand, the US media has made it much more personal with personal insults bordering on racism (swith "French" with "Mexican" and you can call it Racism). I have never heard a French politician make a racist "anti-American" joke for public consumption. It seems that it's the norm in the US. Check out www.miquelon.org.
Max & Zoomer
So are you telling me that you agree somewhat in theory that Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, or Syria, one of them should be armed with a nuclear arsenal to ''balance the scales '' with the western world?
Is this your reason for being so against President Bush's doctrine? That the You are either with us or against us doctrine would put the USA and France on a collision course?
Are you so enamoured with the various Presidents for life that populate the Arab states?
Are you willing to fight and die for the Arab Dictators, so they can keep their pampered status?
Not at all Papertiger, don't generalize again (is it an obsession?), this idea was just a provocation of a poor lost european deputy of a poor lost group in European Parliamant (Group for a Europe of democracies and diversities)...
There is enough nuclear weapons in the hands of fools in India, Pakistan and North Corea..
but beyond the provocation, it's not false that an unbalance exists between occident and orient, and this generate terrorism. Don't ask me what to do, I don't know, but certainly not giving WMD to them.
Are you so enamoured with the various Presidents for life that populate the Arab states?
sure, Kadhafi is so sexy..
So are you telling me that you agree somewhat in theory that Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, or Syria, one of them should be armed with a nuclear arsenal to ''balance the scales '' with the western world?
No at all (basically your concern is the same as ours, beleive it or not) but is knocking them off one by one the answer? On what legal ground? Why not Pakistan who has been in fact the worst offender? And North Korea, a time bomb waiting to happen (I hope I am wrong)?
Is this your reason for being so against President Bush's doctrine? That the You are either with us or against us doctrine would put the USA and France on a collision course?
No. No one disputed the war on the Taliban, Bin Laden and Al Quaeda, not France, not Germany, no one. Bush's doctrine sets a dangerous precedant: We'll pick and choose what country is "evil" (but not our friends Pakistan and Saudi Arabia) and you better agree with us. Not a good way to convince public opinion around the world.
"switch "French" with "Mexican" and you can call it Racism"
Zoomer, give it up. The difference in history between the US and France and the US and Mexico is far too great for this to be any kind of valid comparison.
The US resides on the better half the land that the Pope gave to Spain, by which gift Mexico claimed it. Too bad that the Pope didn't have the armies to back it up.
The other added third of the US, we bought off of Napolean, cash on the barrel head, fair and square.
"So, off, course the remaining of the world and their poor newspaper cannot understand how brillant "
Like I said in the other thread. "Everybody agrees with me so I am right". But you can't give a cogent reason for why you believe what you believe that you are willing to defend beyond saying again "everybody else agrees with me".
This argument is only convincing to a Frenchman.
Moptop,
Since your line of reasoning seems closest to "everybody disagrees with us, therefore we must be right and they are whiny bozos", please elaborate on the present course of the Bush administration policy that now seeks to "lower (y)our sights".
Please note that I am quoting a Neocon prominent ideologist (and Andy's favourite), Robert Kagan.
I really enjoyed line 1 of paragraph 6:
"All but the most blindly devoted Bush supporters can see that Bush administration officials have no clue about what to do in Iraq tomorrow, much less a month from now".
The following link won't stay up too long (it is a weekly newsletter), but I recommend this piece from (former?) neocon site Stratfor called Iraq: New Strategies, where the chairman bluntly states "Unless you are an ideologue -- which I am not -- who believes bringing American-style democracy to the world is a holy mission, it follows that the nature of the Iraqi government -- or chaos -- does not affect me."
Thanks for the opinions. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and everybody thinks the other guy's stink.
I have never considered this a "holy mission to bring American-style democracy" to Iraq. I also do not share his pessimism.
The "everybody agrees with me" quote was a charictarization of *your* arguments. An point of mine made even stronger by your citing of *opinion* pieces as support for you side. I know that this point is kind of subtle for a Frenchman but, if you think long enough, and honestly enough, you will get it eventually.
How will the insurgency, which is already pretty much destroyed, threaten the new govt of Iraq? Casualties have been dropping week by week as we kill more and more of these 'resistence fighters' who always seem to have foreign passports, for some reason.
Why don't you read what has acutally happened to As Sadr? Seems like the popular uprising happened against him, and not the US. In fact, and I am curious if you read this in your newspapers, the locals in Najaf formed a militia and started killing Al Sadr's men when they saw them on the street. These are the men you are rooting for. The same men who want to re-impose totalitarian rule on Iraq.
Notice that this is not a US newspaper. If there is something in a French newspaper that contradicts this, and proves that things are going as badly as you imply, I would like to see it.
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2978657
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=598152004
It should be a factual news story, not another opinion piece please.
Since we went into Fallujah, when has the last roadside bomb happened there? Seems like Fallujah is pacified to me.
Since the insurgency has been put down, except for some mopping up in Najaf, on what basis to you place your assertion that Bush has "no clue" what he is doing?
Do you think about the stuff that you read beyond "oooh, I agree I like, I don't agree, I don't like"? It doesn't seem like you think at all.
Here is another link about the "Thulfiqar Army"
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=482652004
It seems like you frogs are always backing the wrong horse.
So you got it Moptop
Like I said in the other thread. "Everybody agrees with me so I am right". But you can't give a cogent reason for why you believe what you believe that you are willing to defend beyond saying again "everybody else agrees with me".
You see the matter is about agreement on a given action rather than pro or anti country fantazy
You'r right, By itself the statement
Everybody agrees with me so I am right
Is simply rubbish. and as Dr Evil wrote
everybody disagrees with us, therefore we must be right
does not worth better.
To choose between both, we must think about the matter on which (dis)agree:
If you are a scientist searching about universe structure or biology, obviously, you have to work on ideas with which nobody agree (already), like Galileo, Copernic. Pasteur ....
But if it's about foreign policy... don't you think that a wide consensus is simply mandatory to get successfull results?
Since we went into Fallujah, when has the last roadside bomb happened there? Seems like Fallujah is pacified to me.
Don't believe I enjoy posting necrologies.
I'm sad for their families and close relations.
It seems like you frogs are always backing the wrong horse.
Like you are with Mr. Chalabi?
..
the first link doesn't work, so -> here
Seems like Fallujah is pacified to me.
Great. Many Vietnamese villages were "pacified" by the French and the Americans too.
Three days ago? A few weeks ago it was a dozen a day, it seems. Yet somehow the resistance fades, week after week, as I said before.
I guess that you won't consider the battle won until there is not one of the 26 million Iraqis mad at us then?
Did you ever find out where Saddam had declared the binary Sarin shell to the UN? I didn't think so, because he didn't. I guess then that your fallback position is that it was the only one?
Bring up your game zoomer, you are getting dull.
Did you ever find out where Saddam had declared the binary Sarin shell to the UN?
One shell of Sarin gaz worth? Not to underestimate the damage it can create, but I think the US was looking for much more than that...
So, your position is that there are no more where that one came from? Also, your position is that it does not matter whether Saddam declared it to Blix? Just wondering...
OH S**T!!!!
anybody besides me ever spend 10 minutes typing a response here and then hit preview and then HIT CANCEL and lose everything?????
OK, lets try this again....
Ahhh, the evil “Dr Evil” is back. Welcome.
Yes, I saw the Kagan article you linked to in the first part of May. It is one of his better, as he is now saying something different (new). He was, for a while, rehashing the same material over and over, selling the same article, or bits, to various outlets. I guess you gotta make a few bucks here and there.
Although your favorite quote is in the Kagan article, I prefer a statement from your other link:
The key to al Qaeda is in Riyadh and in Islamabad. The invasion of Iraq was a stepping-stone toward policy change in Riyadh, and it worked. The pressure must be maintained and now extended to Islamabad.
Riyadh and Islamabad may be the key to al Qaeda, but IMHO it is the situation in Syria that is most closely tied with the outcome in Iraq. I’m quite surprised that neither author mentions much about this.
Syria is expanding its partnership with Iran, believed to have at least 100 missiles with VX nerve agent and nosing around to China to get ballistic-missiles.
Does not the EU have a “free trade area” with Syria, the “Euro-Mediterranean Association Agreement” made with the Assad regime in Damascus?
One shell of Sarin gaz worth
One, yes, but there was not supposed to be any of them. So your buddy Blix said. The question remains, if there was one, how many more are there? And where are they? Do you think, and are you confident, that there was only one?
Of course, most “experts” (US and others) have concluded that there “most likely are not many left”. But these experts have been wrong before, and I don’t like the word “many”. Even if there were a dozen or so left, this does not substantiate finding WMD in Iraq that was expected, but it is troubling.
Also, it seems that the folks who had it did not know it contained gas. I sure hope they only had one, because if they had more shells, they know now what they have.
Man, I feel like I'm in the movie Groundhog Day. I think my first post may have been better, I'm tired going to go to bed.
Homer nods: Thanks to all who pointed out the faulty percentages. These have been corrected.
How we wept to read that M. Zoomerx found our post boring.
Here’s a suggestion: Note the planar spheroid in your hand. It is a mouse. Use it to click yourself elsewhere.
This beats the expatiated boredom of 11 posted comments.
And M. Zoomerx demands links proving that the French have their fun at the expense of fat Americans.
Classic Pave. Why don't you send us a link where the French are "mocking" you and bragging about these facts (that's how you make it sound) instead of turning this into some inane French anti-American tirade? This is getting really boring folks.
Posted by zoomerx at May 22, 2004 03:35 AM
Well, here is one (Comment #10):
I don't feel sorry for [American] fat-asses eating themselves to death.
Posted by zoomerx at April 1, 2004 04:20 PM
Why, it is none other than M. Zoomerx himself having his mock! Here he condescends to share his personal sense of horror at an American colleague's breakfast (Comment #15):
The key to good diet of course is moderation . I remember a colleague of mine in the US who each morning would bring to work a reasonably small MacDonald breakfast toppled [We agree, this is no way to eat one's breakfast. It just sounds messy.] with an obscene cup of Coca-Cola from "Seven-Eleven" the size of a small bucket ("Super Gulp" I think it was called).
Posted by zoomerx at April 3, 2004 05:37 PM
M. Zoomerx's outrecuidance goes on... (Comment #19):
The French (and others) are simply more disciplined in their food intake as opposed to Americans who generally eat more of anything "on the go", hence their bad diet habits. The French also tend to cook themselves [Auto-anthropophagy, the final act of narcissism] at home much more than in the US (ironically, I could never get a decent apple pie in the US that wasn't laced with sugar and jello-ey stuff on it). Cuisine is truly an art in France, something that has been developped for centuries. You are only starting to appreciate it (as well as what good coffee ought to be) and it's getting better, thank God (and the French).
Posted by zoomerx at April 8, 2004 04:27 PM
..and on and on (Comment #22):
If there is one thing the French do well, it's food! As far as I remember, there was little appreciation for gastronomy in the US as far back as the late 1970's...
Posted by zoomerx at April 9, 2004 08:29 PM
[Emphases added.]
What are we to think, M. Zoomerx? You who so freely tosses about the epithet "hypocrite", what are we to make of your phony indignation?
What we don't see much of in this thread are comments on the posted topic, scil., France's adiponecrotic government.
DGB
"What we don't see much of in this thread are comments on the posted topic"
Well I'm still looking forward to see a thread here that sticks to the original topic for more than 3 or 4 posts in a row.
It is sometimes hard to understand your unabated candor towards the current Administration, but as far as this blog is concerned I find such candor somewhat refreshing. Keep up the good work. And don't forget to write to Santa Claus, come X-mas.
Hmmm... you got me there, Mr Damian, mea culpa. Did you have me in mind while you wrote your rather pompous prologue (complete with with US links, not French), or just "The French"? Of course, as you so objectively point out, we all know the French spend most of their time "mocking" and "laughing" at obese Americans... at least this is how you make it sound, hence my "indignation". Have you ever blogged at the Guardian Talk btw? "Fat Americans" is a favourite discussion there for some reason, with the Brits as the worst offenders...
And speaking of evil French, what do you make of Michael Moore (another fat American ;-) winning the Palme d'Or at Cannes? Sadly for you, there was only one French judge in the panel of nine including four Americans and presided by Quentin Tarentino. I would bet America sees it as an evil anti-American French plot, am I wrong?
Oh and yes, you do make a fair point regarding French administration choking on itself in many areas.
You're fat, we're lazy...
Moptop,
"Seems like Fallujah is pacified to me"
It got pacified when the US handed the city back to a Iraqi Republican Guard General and the Marines pulled out. Now the general is out, the marines are out, but baathists are back in.
Casualties have been dropping week by week as we kill more and more of these 'resistence fighters'
Yeah, like resistance faded after the Ramadan offensive last November. Only to come back stronger in April. I'm looking forward to next August or September.
...who always seem to have foreign passports, for some reason.
Can you substantiate this with more than your personal opinion?
According to a recent poll, it seems that "88 per cent of Iraqis now regard the U.S. troops as occupiers, rather than liberators" (Note: there may be a margin of error of about 3%, so only 85% of the locals may actually see you as occupiers; Note #2: the poll was conducted before the Abu Ghraib scandal). I know polls don't count shit, but since even the US government is governing with them, you still may want to pay some attention. Wouldn't you think it weird that 90% of a given population feels occupied and yet everyone would sit on its hands, waiting for better days to come (and foreign fighters do the dirty work)?
This takes us anyway pretty far from the flowers and cheerful mobs we were promised before the invasion.
Thanks for the link to the Thulfiqar Army. I enjoyed the "shadowy resistance movement within might be about to succeed where the 2,500 US marines outside the city have failed" line.
Yet to me this rather reeks of civil war creeping in (not to mention what has already started in Kirkuk between Kurds and Turkmens, and which, amazingly enough, does not seem to be mentioned in the US media).
"Why don't you read what has actually happened to As Sadr?"
Well, I shall return the question to you, since the aforementioned poll quotes Sadr's rating soar from a meager 1% only 6 months ago to "32% strongly support" and "36% support him somewhat".
Andy,
I agree with you on Kagan. I disagree on the rest, but since I've been pretty verbose today I'll keep this for tomorrow.
Damian,
I don't feel sorry for fat-asses eating themselves to death.
where do you see that Zoomerx is talking about American fat-asses?
BTW, I don't see any mockery in his sentence, it's more a personal opinion, just like 'my prefered color is blue' or 'Fat asses love naked human pyramids'
PS: please, do not add [American] in my sentences.
I would bet America sees it as an evil anti-American French plot, am I wrong?
Of course we do, I’m surprised you don’t.
More proof of anti-American French plots against America:
The French Open. ALL 10 US men players are gone. Poof. And to prove this is a French plot, FIVE of them were defeated by frogs. Oh my, zoomerx, if you don’t see the rank anti-Americanism of this then there must be something wrong with you.
huhu :)
Dr. Evil,
You are a capable poster, keep your correspondents on track.
M. Zoomerx,
Had you in mind? As in did I contrive to set you up? That’s more manipulation than I can manage. I wasn’t aware of your remarks till you sent me off looking for them. When posting there’s a surmise that some will agree, some won’t. That’s as much as I have in mind.
I have no idea how much time the French allocate for making fun of Americans. However when certain topics come up, e.g., fat Americans, clearly you enjoy a little laugh, just as stateside when something like French hygiene comes up Americans enjoy our snicker. I find nothing harmful in all that. It’s the nature of fun to be at someone else’s expense.
No, I read the Guardian but do not post to any of its forums.
I have never referred to the French wholesale as evil. Clearly France has some losers and evil sots in her ranks, but evil is an exacting and exhausting enterprise for an entire nation. I think it fair to generalize about the French from the quality and actions of their elected leaders. After all they are meant to represent France and her interests. However I do not extrapolate the French character from some jackass like Dieudonné M'Bala M'Bala , at least not till the French stand behind him at the ballot box.
As for Michael Moore , he is a fraud in so many things. I have remarked on Cannes’ sorry award elsewhere . The Alexandre Adler topic article is very good.
M. Max,
So you are telling us that you prefer blue and love naked human pyramids? Is there some special reason you want to share that with Pave?
Bracketed text is a notation convention like “scilicet” that supplies a missing or contextual referent. Were you to actually have read M. Zoomerx’s comments in the context of the thread it is plain that he is talking about Americans implicitly in the first comment and explicitly in his three subsequent comments. You might also notice in his response that he does not protest the bracketed clarification. But then none of that would square with your parading around here as a smartass.
Regards,
DGB
Dr Evil:
U.S. military statement said that during Wednesday's operation, "coalition forces came under hostile fire and close air support was provided". It said troops recovered numerous weapons, two million Iraqi and Syrian dinar, foreign passports and a satellite communications system.
"Kurds and Turkmens"
The Kurds have been warring with the Turkmens forever, so what? The Kurds have had a democracy for a decade now, no thanks to France. Is Europe illegitimate because of the Basques and the Spanish? Northern Ireland? I do not worry about the Kurds, they will be alright. The Turks sold us out under pressure from the EU. They chose the other side in this matter and they will pay the consequences for years to come. Too bad for them.
So do you have a link that shows that Fallujah was handed over to Baathists still loyal to Saddam and the Baath party? That is what you imply. If that is not what you meant, please clarify.
We really do mean to hand over the country June 30. I would rather have Iraqis running it than UN troops, come to beggar the population and split the oil among the most corrupt, which has apparently been UN policy for the whole time you were hoping that sanctions would provide "some other way" to get rid of Saddam. You guys did really great in Kosovo, didn't you?
Same with Al Sadr. Even if 30% support him, he will have to win elections, like anyone else, because 30% is not enough to derail the elections that are coming.
More links of Saddam to 9-11, don't read this. It might upset you belief system:
One striking bit of new evidence is that the name Ahmed Hikmat Shakir appears on three captured rosters of officers in Saddam Fedayeen, the elite paramilitary group run by Saddam's son Uday and entrusted with doing much of the regime's dirty work. Our government sources, who have seen translations of the documents, say Shakir is listed with the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel.
This matters because if Shakir was an officer in the Fedayeen, it would establish a direct link between Iraq and the al Qaeda operatives who planned 9/11. Shakir was present at the January 2000 al Qaeda "summit" in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, at which the 9/11 attacks were planned.
So you are telling us that you prefer blue and love naked human pyramids?
did I say I was in US army?
No, I read the Guardian but do not post to any of its forums.
Then you must have seen today's cartoon, British humour is so much more subtle ;-)
Man I thought this was a post about Michael Moore singing.
Moptop,
Congratulations. I actually am President W., browsing the web incognito and probing my fellow Americans for their unquestioning patriotism, and I hereby make you my new Secretary of State. At least you know better than the former one:
No proof links Iraq, al-Qaida, Powell says
"NBC, MSNBC and news services
Updated: 8:11 p.m. ET Jan.08, 2004
WASHINGTON - Secretary of State Colin Powell reversed a year of administration policy, acknowledging Thursday that he had seen no “smoking gun [or] concrete evidence” of ties between former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida."
Since you're at it, go over to UK to do a bit of clean-up at MI6 as well, since they don't seem to be connecting dots as well as you do:
Leaked report rejects Iraqi al-Qaeda link
"The classified document, written by defence intelligence staff three weeks ago, says there has been contact between the two in the past.
But it assessed that any fledgling relationship foundered due to mistrust and incompatible ideologies".
So yes, they met. But the collaboration seems to have been less fruitful that when Rummy went there.
I am glad to see you quote an "opinion" piece from the WSJ - what is it you said you thought of opinions?
Foreigners:
Your link asserts that foreigners enter Iraq to join the fight, which is obvious, it doesn't support your "opinion" that these constitute much of the resistance.
Fisherman gives insight into Iraqi resistance
"...He insisted he wasn't motivated by any loyalty to Saddam Hussein or principled Islamic opposition to the U.S. presence. He said he was driven by what he sees as the Americans' heavy-handed treatment of ordinary Iraqis during anti-guerrilla operations.
U.S. military officials say groups such as the fisherman's are behind much of the resistance. (...)
The man calling himself Salahuddin, who was interviewed before the Aug. 19 bombing, said he had heard about foreign fighters in Iraq but had yet to meet any."
And that was 9 months ago. I guess now he got a few neighbours and cousins to join the fight.
BTW, there are no of few shiites in the rest of the Arab world, so I guess it makes Sadr's militiamen mostly local (maybe a few are Iranians but certainly not a majority since that'd brand him as a mercenary).
Kurds and Turkmen
"The Kurds have been warring with the Turkmens forever, so what?"
I'm speechless.
"The Kurds have had a democracy for a decade now"
If you call democracy the freeedom to move between PUK- or KDP-controlled areas, then I guess it is quite democratic indeed. At least there is a choice.
"So do you have a link that shows that Fallujah was handed over to Baathists still loyal to Saddam and the Baath party"?
You are misinterpreting what I wrote. I only found it amusing that the US would hand over the city to a group commanded by people from the army/party they'd come to destroy. I didn't say they were vowing to restore Saddam to power. Actually, it seems those people have shifted loyalties and are no Baathists any more:
Fundamentalist city state emerges in Fallujah
Which is somewhat reassuring, don't you think?
"I am glad to see you quote an "opinion" piece from the WSJ"
This was a piece that contained facts. Facts that are checked before they are printed. I referred to those facts specifically. I don't know what is so hard about distinguishing between facts and opinions. I notice that you did not respond to any of them. You cannot tell the difference between a fact and an opinion by looking at which page it is on.
It is incumbant upon one who wishes to assert a negative, which is you saying there is no link to al Qaeda, to respond to facts that seem to disprove your assertion. That is why proving a negative is so hard, and often a fool's errand. You think that asserting your original point of view with a reference to a third-party with authority answers the argument.
That is a fundimental difference between the Anglo-Saxon and Gaulic mind. It appears to us that you are far too willing to let others think for you. It makes me wonder why you even bother to get into these debates.
Colin Powell has his opinion. I think he's wrong, that is my opinion. I think that Colin Powell is out of his depth. de Villepin certainly had no respect for him or he would not have invited him chez-lui to watch himself get stab him in the back on TV back at the UN by his 'host'.
Colin Powell cares too much what people think of him, and does not think for himself. In my opinion.
Facts that are checked before they are printed.
Yep. Like the WMD stuff and the cheering mobs.
You think that asserting your original point of view with a reference to a third-party with authority answers the argument
It doesn't strike you as odd that a top-ranking government official should be less informed than an obscure WSJ columnist? Particularly since the said columnists quotes as "new evidence" data that mostly dates back to september 2002 (link:US trace al Qaeda operative to Iraq). As for checking facts, well the WSJ guy himself says it could very well be two people bearing the same name. I say let us keep this one in the fridge and wait for a couple of weeks to know more about it.
I don't know what is so hard about distinguishing between facts and opinions. I notice that you did not respond to any of them.
Then I wonder why I bothered copying and pasting your previous post and searching for links. If you specifically referred to the WSJ "facts", then please re-read the lines above.
You won't admit having tunnel vision about this war, will you?
Andy,
To react on what you said yesterday about Syria being more important than Ryadh or Islamabad, I'd say that both authors were thinking in terms of immediate threats to US security.
The Saudis and Pakis have done far more for international US-bound terrorism than Syria (which already has a lot to do with sponsoring terrorism in Lebanon and Israel, while keeping itself afloat at the same time).
"like that WMD stuff"
Yep, no sarin gas here. Hey look over that away. No sirrebob no undeclared chemical/biological weapons at all. Certainly none that look like normal shells. Nope no WMDs whatsoever.
all that mess you did about Bill Clintonhaving good time with Monica Lewinski. We could not understand that. Here, a President MUST have some adventures, if not, then he becomes suspect. (Hum... I don't know what will be the rule when the President will be a Lady...)
In other hand, someone who earn money is always supposed guilty of something by French people while In US he is just considered as someone who succeeded...
Other places, other values... Is it hat important?
That important? You've named two things that I think are absolutely pivotal.
In the first case, we prize principle. I suspect that your casting the issue as being over "having a good time with Monica" is symptomatic of what I'd call a French inability to grasp principle. You see, the fuss wasn't about a blow job. In the background, it was about the series of corruptions and scandals that riddled the Clinton administration (zippergate was only one of them), but in the foreground it was about principle. It was about the smarmy, manipulative, and dishonest character of the man whose ass was polishing the most powerful seat on the planet. If the man lacked the integrity to honor the most solemn vow he should have made in his life (the lifetime commitment he made to his wife), how could he have the integrity to repect an oath of office? If he had such contempt for that promise that he lacked the discipline to keep his penis out of a chubby and not-that-attractive subordinate, he was devoid of the character that many (I wish I could say most) of us feel is appropriate to occupy that office. You expect corruption, base and vile behavior at every turn, but we're outraged at the betrayal of public trust. Honor still means something to some of us. We want a commander-in-chief, not a felon-in-chief. Character matters.
In the second case, I think that socialist class envy defines another fault-line. Maybe to become wealthy in France you really do have to be guilty of something - I don't know, but that isn't so here. I only know two multi-millionaires, but I've known both since their start; neither came from wealth. One did it in sales, one did it as a retail proprietor, and both did it by working their asses off - harder than I've ever been willing to work. They achieved. This class envy is very much rooted in Marxist doctrine, the belief that there can't be success without victims - therefore, socialist French must these friends of mine must have trampled on someone's backs or be confronted with the possibility that Marx was simply wrong. And I think we know how well evidence of Marx's failure is typically received.
So, back to the question - is it important? In the first case, character determines how someone can be expected to conduct themselves when they occupy positions of power. Is that important? In the second case - I think you need to examine several questions.
A virtue or a sin; is the distinction important?
Oppressor or a victim; is this distinction important?
Believe in truth or fantasy; is this distinction important?
Live and thrive or languish and die, is this distinction important?
I answer "yes" on all four.
if he really want force balance, the wise way would be to remove nuclear weapon...
I question your definition of "wisdom". Are you forgetting that nuclear weapons created a balance? Or do you also suggest that at least 10-20 countries and a half dozen major NGO's be placed on Israel's side? It is not Israel that has been trying to crush the Arab League and sweep it into the sea for the last 56 years. It is not Israel that aspires to the destruction of all arab states. It is not Israelis who are so steeped in bigotry and hatred that they gleefully cavort in the streets with arab body parts. Remove nukes from Israel only if you want to see the War of Independance happen again. Is that it - you missed the first one, so you're itching to see a rematch?
Zoomer was dead on when he made this comment:
A tasteless daily joke that unfairly mischaracterizes another nation with an out of context portrayal? Noooooo! We don't do that in America.
Actually, he was spouting relativism. It's the same logic that says you can't scorn a serial killer if you once accidentally hit someone with your car. Sure, that happens in America - but since when are we confronted with it daily from virtually every media outlet?
Sure our media are bashing the US all day long, and vast majority of French rise each day to bash Americans, go to work thinking how to bash you more, come home have an anti-american wine or bang their spouse to ensure a new generation of anti-american.
Here's a magic trick. Do this every day for a week -
1.) Link me to one major American daily news source that has a story critical of France/French on it's web site's front page today
2.) Link me to one major French daily news source which does not have a story critical of America/Americans on it's web site's front page today
At the end of the week, the sarcasm in your post above will have magically been reduced by half.
Or, simply the problem is not about who you are (American) but what you did with this neo-con war in Iraq, not so many errors, just one : having started it.
Bull. The war is just the latest excuse for Europe to practice its proud tradition of bigotry on the focus du jour.
But if it's about foreign policy... don't you think that a wide consensus is simply mandatory to get successfull results?
This depends on the motives and agendas of the consenting, and how you define success. If the the guiding motives of some or many are contrary to success as defined, then it is impossible for consensus to yield success. If success is defined as making a good sandwich, I can unilaterally have myself a kickass lunch.
The Turks sold us out under pressure from the EU. They chose the other side in this matter and they will pay the consequences for years to come. Too bad for them.
Don't judge them too harshly over that. They had to absorb a lot headache in the first go 'round, and the accompanying problems you would expect when Kurds come flooding into Turkey. For the sequel, they wanted NATO assurances for their security. With NATO being an organization whose obligation is to defend it's members and all, that should have sounded reasonable to sane people. The French saw it differently. Turkey could not obtain any NATO assurances for it's security because they could not even get a hearing in NATO to voice and discuss their concerns (which is the right of every NATO member, guaranteed to them under NATO's artcle IV). How did this happen? Well, their conference was denied to them by - say it with me - France, of all nations.
Had Turkey received the support it was entitled to from the organization to which it's contributions are orders of magnitude more meaningful than France's, they would have stayed on board. However, it seems that France never met an international initiative that it didn't aspire to undermine.
Doc Evil
Been gone a while and just ran through the thread.
Your links from the BBC telling us all that Saddam and AlQueda were not linked in any way what-so-ever are a load of horseshit.
---[The defence intelligence staff document, seen by BBC defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan, is classified Top Secret and was sent to UK Prime Minister Tony Blair and other senior members of the government.]
The Beeb is still paying Gilligan for his lies?
Well sane people give him as much credibility as Baghdad Bob.
Seek help for your mental condition Doc. I hear there are free mental clinics in your country.
And all the soma you can eat.
"It doesn't strike you as odd that a top-ranking government official should be less informed than an obscure WSJ columnist?"
Here we are again, at the same point. Anglo Saxons want to argue about facts. The French want to argue about the relative authority of the opinions they subscribe to.
You seem to take it on faith that your authority has already seen the facts in quesion and deemed them beneath comment. I, on the other hand, would like to see the statements of the WSJ specifically rebutted. Something I do not expect, BTW, since they can keep your undying loyalty by just ignoring them. That does not constitute a factual rebuttal of any kind.
Of the utmost urgency are indications, continuing to emerge, that Iraq forged operational ties with al Qaeda, sought to conduct terrorist attacks against the United States, and may in fact have had a hand in the 9/11 attacks. The focus of this evidence is the Iraqi Intelligence Service and its apparent ties with not one but at least three leaders of the suicide hijacking plot: Mohammed Atta, Khalid al-Midhar, and Nawaf al-Hazmi.
National Review
