That's right, it's right around the corner - I'm talking about D-Day. Now I know that we have a pretty good back and forth here at PaveFrance, picking on the weenie frogs...but when it comes right down to it, I know the French are grateful, no?

So, here's a comment thread (a few days early, even!) for all of you French and French lovers to express your undying gratitude, if not allegiance to the US of A.

Singing your own national anthem feels pretty good, I'll bet. Even if it sounds like crap.

Not very diplomatic, krempasky, asking us to show our gratitude while calling us "weenies" and insulting our national anthem... And you view us as "arrogant"? ;-)

you're right Krempaski

thanks to US soldiers on the west
thanks to USSR soldiers on the east
thanks to French terrorists and French army
thanks to Hitler for beeing an asshole

and yes, your national anthem is really nice, specially the 18 August 1969 Hendrix interpretation, listen to the bombs...

http://www.mp3int.com/eng/download_mp3/68615/14299701/Jimi_Hendrix_The_Star_Spangled_Banner

The US getting involved in Europe {Iraq} was a MISTAKE after all it was the Nippon Empire {Osama} which actually struck us on December 7th {September 11th}, a date which will surely live in infamy. I mean talk about getting distracted from the REAL enemy! We put the primary focus on the European Theater {Afghanistan}? WTF?!?

WE unilaterally declared war on Germany and Italy. THEY responded to our unprovoked action by reciprocating. I mean they actually had cause before that point because we were actively supplying their enemies! (Oh sure Roosevelt {BUSHCO} called it Lend-Lease {no bid contract awarded by the previous administration}, but let's be honest, it was all a ploy by the industrial-military complex {CHENEYBURTON} in an effort to get us out of a decade and a half long depression {blood for oil}.)

And hrumph, Eisenhower paraded his troops and German civilians through the concentration camps {so they could never deny what had happened}. Hell even we are too civilized to do that today. After all it was just the Jooooos {Kurds}.

After all if we had just acted more diplomatically toward German {Iraq} we could have avoided bloodshed. After all 'mericans are so undiplomatic, eh zoomeridiot? Sanctions work! Just take a look how they curbed the ambitions of the Nips {Iraqis}. Those damn simplistic 'mericans. The biggest threat the world has ever seen.

To all you Frogs out there who think we are wrong for our unilateral {coalition of 38 (no big loss when Spain left) countries} action now let me give you an if then statement. If we are wrong now, then we were wrong then. If we were right in '41, then we are right now. {Except back then it was to save ungrateful Frogs which I guess makes it ok in your book, right.}

The biggest threat the world has ever seen.

According to your "ally", the Mayor Of London, you seem to be. I have not heard Chirac make that mention, unless you have a link.

The comparaison between WW2 and Irak... Apples and oranges. Start with the "WMD threat"... (I suppose Pakistan is next?)

M. Max, you who love the blue pyramids of naked humans,

What to make of your post? Something has upset you, but what? You are all spleen and no sense. If you like to drop by and insult us, well and good. But we are not insulted. No one knows what you mean. Like the monkey in the zoo you fling the bounty of your backside without aim or purpose.

Since the Star Spangled Banner figures prominently in your music appreciation, here is a version from Iraq you will like. Ah, but there is no one in Baghdad to riff La Marseillaise.

I prefer Hendrix's version, but that's a great link. BTW, I don't find Max post insulting.

It was partially the fear that the Nazis were on the fast track to developing a nuclear weapon that drove the Manhattan project. After the war, we found out that this was all wrong and there was no Nazi nuke. So I suppose FDR lied, soldiers died? You will find that the northwestern and Normandy French are very grateful to the US and its soldiers. It is the sophisticated Parisians and the southerners (Vichy) who are virulent anti-Americans. The popular misconception of a powerful Resistance movement is just that, a misconception. There was some activity however the vast majority of Parisians didn't really care and many took advantage of the occupation to rid themselves of any inconvenient Jews who happened to own something that they coveted. In their slight defense, it is easy to judge as we all know how it turned out in the end. Obviously it was not clear in 1942 that Germany would fall so passivity was a survival technique.

You will find that the northwestern and Normandy French are very grateful to the US and its soldiers. It is the sophisticated Parisians and the southerners (Vichy) who are virulent anti-Americans.

Right. If you say so it must be true. All Southerners in America hate blacks too, tight?

The popular misconception of a powerful Resistance movement is just that, a misconception.

"Powerful"? Your word. They did some important tasks before D-Day. What you shoul know, Paul, is that 300,000 French citizens and 300,000 French soldiers died in WW2, that's a total of 600,000.

I never wrote that there were no Resistance activities, only that they were more the exception than the norm. One relative ended up making V2s after being picked up by the Gestapo for such activity, another escaped. Face it, the French collaborated more than they will admit.

The French should have asked in 1940: Why do the Germans hate us?

I think that WWII trouble period cannot be judged in a general way, each person engaged in this war had a past, an history, a family, even German soldiers..

"The death of one is a tragedy. The death of a million is a statistic."

In the US, your collective memory is not aware of what is occupation, and your discovery of massive civilian deaths caused by foreigner attacks on your soil is very recent.

BTW, Resistance was no more than terrorism.

Perhaps that's one of the reasons why Iraq war is not supported by most of Europeans (I'm not talking about governments but people).

--
Damian, where do you find an insult on my post, I just praise people who fought to save us, your soldiers, russian soldiers and others.

Thinking that we are not very grateful towards(?) these heroes is a mistake.

No Max, your country and citizens are not grateful at all, I think you are ashamed and your failure has turned to rage against your rescuers.

Actually, you post just goes to show how screwed up the average French mind in when you make equivalences between the United States and The Soviet Union. They really did a great job of "liberating" Eastern Europe didn't they?

Anyways, I don't lose sleep because of French attitudes, so I really don't care if you French like us or not. In a way, I would almost prefer that you continued to hate us. That lets me know we are on the correct moral track.
I would eventually like all of our service members that are buried on European soil to be returned to the US; that is when you are done using them as a tourist attraction.

http://www.thehappyextremist.com/forum/images/europe/usfrance.jpg

I'm thinking Damian might not be a big Hendrix fan.

Face it, the French collaborated more than they will admit.

No, Vichy was a collaboration regime and the most shameful episode of French history by far. But as Max points out, the history of Europe is one of countless occupations (even France "occupied" just about every country in Europe at one point). It's easy for you not to relate to that being bordered by "friendly" neighbours such as Canada and Mexico and never having suffered the horrors of occupation...

that is when you are done using them as a tourist attraction.

Have you been there? I have. Don't remember seeing a MacDonald or a Starbucks nearby. By the way, French authorities precisely turned down Spielberg request to shoot "Private Ryan" nearby out of respect. Imagine the killing they would have made in rent fees as well as local businesses. I remember the same narrow-minded morons who saw it as some kind of "anti-American" .

... some kind of "anti-American" slap in the face. Jimmy The Clam, Euros like America, it's morons like you who gives it a bad name.

Actually, you post just goes to show how screwed up the average French mind in when you make equivalences between the United States and The Soviet Union. They really did a great job of "liberating" Eastern Europe didn't they?

The reference was in context with WW2 and extremely relevent. "Context" within History of course is something people like you seem to be utterly clueless about.

Is it because I'm not "nuanced" enough?

zoomerx, I just love it when French try to tell us our own history.
Neither Canada or Mexico were friendly until we made them that way. When was the last time France permanently "tamed" a neighbor (without U.S. assistance)?

The French debate and contemplate and we unsophisticated Americans simply do. I guess that is the real difference between us.

Is it because I'm not "nuanced" enough?

Bingo.

Neither Canada or Mexico were friendly until we made them that way.

In the case of Mexico, you took over their territories, I guess they had no choice. Canada?

Anyway, since when did Canada and Mexico have ambitions to anihilate the shit out of you?

The French debate and contemplate and we unsophisticated Americans simply do. I guess that is the real difference between us.

There was a time when we too simply "did". With fucked-up consequences at times. Enjoy it while you can, I don't blame you bragging about it.

When was the last time France permanently "tamed" a neighbor (without U.S. assistance)?

WW1, mostly on foot. Lost 1.5 millions soldiers until you showed up at the end of the party. Lucky you not to be bordered by power-thirsty neighbours.

Our "winning streak" is running on over 230 years, so I seem to think that we have figured out how the game is played.

Actually, my "nuanced" comment was somewhat of a joke but the fact that you responded to it was quite funny for me.

In all seriousness, most Americans don't really believe in nuance. I guess that is another difference between our two people. Typically we believe that half-measures are a waste of time and a sign on either insincerity, weakness, uncertainty or outright subterfuge.

In our minds, if you are a potential national threat our desire is to eliminate you as a threat (Germany and Japan) or assimilate you so deeply that you no longer have a collective will of your own (Canada and Mexico) and will never again be a threat because your interests are now too tightly tied to ours. Yes we may disagree but they will never lift a hand to us again.

Nuance and negotiation have very little part in the process. If we like you, we love you (Israel and the UK), if we don't like you, we want you dead (Afghanistan and Iraq). We do not always act on that impulse, but that is how we feel.

We are not bothered by power thursty neighbors ANYMORE because we faced up to their threat and defeated them.

You seem to for get that in the war of 1812 Canada was used as a base by England to attack us and in the Mexican American War it was Mexico that crossed into American territory.

We did not start either war but we did finish them.

we want you dead (Afghanistan and Iraq)
Who do you want to be dead in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Our "winning streak" is running on over 230 years, so I seem to think that we have figured out how the game is played.

That's what England and France used to think too. Sheer force is one thing, how and when to use it or not is another. WW2 and Vietnam come to mind.

French Resistance in Iraq.
French Resistance in WWII.

Wow, they really do have two different meanings.

I’ve read differing opinions on the French Resistance during WWII, some saying it had not much of an effect, others touting it as extremely important.

No matter which of those you agree with, there are some very interesting and important facts about the Resistance.

Obviously, not being an army or heavily armed, they could not oppose the German army on any large scale operations. We’ve all read about the resistance coordinating sabotages, disrupting German communication and other actions to contribute to the success of D-Day, and the defeat of the Germans. Again, there is much written whether it was vital or not. Read and decide for yourself. But I can’t believe that the Germans would have killed 30,000 members of the Resistance and members of their FAMILES if it had not been hurting them militarily.

Another important thing the Resistance did was to help get Allied pilots shot down over France back to England. Read about the PAT Line here. (It’s a long article, but worth the read). If the Resistance members were found out by the Germans? Read about Oradour-sur-Glane here, as an example.

All the women and children were taken to the church, while the village was looted. Meanwhile the men were taken to six barns, where machine gun nests were already in place. According to the account of a survivor, the soldiers began shooting at them, aiming for their legs so that they would die more slowly. Once the victims were no longer able to move, the Nazis covered their bodies with kindling and set the barns on fire. Only five men escaped; 197 died there.
Having finished with the men, the soldiers then entered the church and put an explosive device in place. After it was detonated, the surviving women and children tried to flee from the doors and windows, but were met with machine gun fire. Only one woman survived; another 240 women and 205 children died in the mayhem.

Well, I have my own mind made up about the French Resistance. Which one? I think you can figure out my feelings on both!

ChiraC addressed the American people directly today.
Mostly he said above all momentary dissagreements He speaks for the French people who from the heart thank you for what you did here.[refering to normandy]

He said it in English. I didn't even know he would speak English!
You see, if the French tourism office would hire this guy instead of lame asses like Woodie Allen, your wine makers would be selling wine over here.

Zoomerx you call WWI taming? Yep it sure did tame the Germans for all of what 10 years?

Sure, dropping an atomic bomb on Berlin would have been far easier.

Sure, dropping an atomic bomb on Berlin would have been far easier

Is this a serious statement or sarcastic statement?

Zoomerx, speaking of Germans, how do you feel about them being invited to DDay this year?

I think we're all happy to see that there is no more resentment against German people

Is this a serious statement or sarcastic statement?

A little bit of both...

Zoomerx, speaking of Germans, how do you feel about them being invited to DDay this year?

I think it's appropriate. How was Chirac's speech perceived in the US?

...And THANKS for the liberation of France.

I was glad to see here your interest about French resistance.

Indeed, until June 44, it was a very few minority. In such conditions, most people had enough trying to survive and provise the basic means of life for their family.

Paul, you see it from a bit far in time and place

the vast majority of Parisians didn't really care and many took advantage of the occupation to rid themselves of any inconvenient Jews who happened to own something that they coveted.

Fortunately, thee where some Parisians who helped Jews to escape from the agenda of the nazis and... French government of Vichy. Thanks to them ! they saved my Mother, her family and thus, my own birth...

If you have an idea what resistance activity could be during nazi occupation, you will understand that there was not a majority of people going at it.
The most general idea people have about resistance is the image of maquisard attacking german convoys at a road turn. But most of the resistance was instead intelligence activity in the shadow until caught, tortured and killed, most of time anonymously.
See the movie L'armée des ombres if you want to feel what resistance could be around 1942.

The military action became very important after the DDay to prevent as much as possible German troops to reach the battle lines.

See another movie La bataille du rail

I don't know if we can compare the resistance against nazi occupation in 40s and the current Iraqi resistance, but, for one first (and probably unique) time, I will advise you to listen at your President G.W. Bush who told "I would never accept to see my country under occupation"

About now, I am not a big fan of commemoration or festiity around war events because it make us dreaming about heros and glory, then forgeting that war is bloody shitty massive death and pain. In another hand It was great to see these veterans getting some gratitude at this occasion. I think the entire Europe owe the current peace and wealth to them.

It is also nice to see the Germans participating to this commemoration. It shows that as deep is the rift, peace can prevail when everybody work on it.

Can we dream that this example will be followed ?

About now, I am not a big fan of commemoration or festiity around war events because it make us dreaming about heros and glory, then forgeting that war is bloody shitty massive death and pain.

In the context of the D-Day commemorations, I respectfully disagree.

How was Chirac's speech perceived in the US?
Well, I can only say that it didn’t get much coverage because of Ronald Reagan dying.
Both papers I read had nothing but Regan on the front page. Articles about speeches/press conferences in Paris were on inside pages. I’m sure that it would have been on the front page if not for the death of Reagan.

For the most part the reaction appeared to follow the “view” of the paper. The liberal paper, of course, had a more “flowery” approach to the story, the conservative papers approached as you would expect.

It was interesting that he spoke English. Most all other times I’ve only seen him speak French (But of course, he is French, so you would expect that). Also interesting that he even spoke English at press conference, until the question about WMD’s; then he fired back in French. Both papers reported on this.

edI think it was a very gracious speech from both Presidents. Chirac thanked the DDay veterens but then expanded his thanks first to the fallen commanders from that time then to the President of America at that time (FDR). Finally going even further, thanking the American Republic for championing the ideals of freedom through the creation of the United Nations. Bit of a clunk at the end there but he sensed it, and saved his warmest regards speaking on behave of every Franchman to say thank you America.

Then President Bush came forward. He started by remembering Ronald Reagan. then he recounted stories of the battle, the people waiting at home whose loved one never returned. He noted that soon these few brave men would be joining their comrades, and noted that their memory will never be forgotten. Then he said we would do it again if France were in peril.

saw it on the late night news show

Good investment Lafayette made, isn't it?

Then he said we would do it again if France were in peril.

He actually mentioned "friends", I guess that includes France (does it?) ;-)

I think it was classy on his part to say that.

Then he said we would do it again if France were in peril

Assuming, of course, we had the proper UN backing?

there's that darned clunk again ;)

Assuming, of course, we had the proper UN backing?

France would object to her own rescue....

France would object to her own rescue....

ROFL! That's worth at least 5 points in the "Zoomer" column.

of Mexico, you took over their territories

Oh yeah, they had a deed from the pope. That made it theirs. The Indians have a claim, but not Mexico, except to a devout catholic, anyway.

Apparently, the word 'friends' is one of those 'faux amis' words which often get mistranslated between the French and English, like 'racism'. Your spoken thanks are meaningless, which is why Jack issues them so freely. What he wont do is give the US the benefit of the doubt in a case where we think that 100 years of history have earned it for us. That is what a 'friend' would do. It is not considered an act of 'friendship' to express sentiments that carry no weight of obligation for action. It is commonly called 'condescention'.

How many of the countries that the US has invaded in the past 100 years was invaded to prevent self determination? A clue, like France, with the exceptions of Viet Nam and Cuba, both conflicts we lost, they are all democratic today to my knowledge, except Iraq. By what historical precedent do you base your claim that the US is in Iraq to prevent self-determination?

One would be enough if you are willing to defend it. Otherwise, ungratefulness and vile spite are the only conclusions one can draw, no matter how much you protest your friendship with you mouth, your actions speak much louder of your true feelings.

Your spoken thanks are meaningless, which is why Jack issues them so freely.

This is bullshit. Chirac has many flaws, but "anti-Americanism" is certainly not one of them. When he was mayor of Paris, he was once accused of being too "pro-American" (he also went to Harvard and worked in the US). I'm afraid you narrow-minded anti-French sentiments are clouding your judgement (that's what racism does) and there's no need to argue with you.

I'd agree with DeProg on one point, that countries have no friends, they have interests (I think the sentence is from de Gaulle, but I could be wrong).

Knowing this, I do not think this diminishes the extent of our gratitude to America. Quite the opposite, indeed.

(Dr.Evil's evil sidenote: the Republican party in 1940 strongly favoured isolationnism!)

(I think the sentence is from de Gaulle, but I could be wrong).

It is (in a letter to Ben-Gourion in the 50's).

"Countries" or "France"?

(Doug's almost-as-evil-as-Dr.-Evil's-evil sidenote: The Democratic party in the 1940's strongly favored segregation)

"Nations have no permanent friends and no permanent enemies. Only permanent interests."

Spoken by British PM Benjamin Disraeli. Or by Lord Palmerston. Or by Churchill. I’ve seen it credited to all of these men. I don’t really know which one did.

I have read that de Gaulle said “France has no permanent friends…..Sounds more like him anyway.

No, he said "Nations don't have friends, only interests" directly to Ben Gurion (Israel's Prime Minister and De Gaulle's friend at the time). It's attributed to him. It's possible he indirectly quoted Disraeli. It's also interesting to note that De Gaulle warned Ben Gourion's agressive policies towards its neighbours (pre-1967) that "would lead to the creation of a Palestinian identity you will never get rid of" . Very prophetic words.

Agressive policies towards it's neighbors? You mean like Syria shooting into Israel from the Golan heights for almost 20 years while the UN ignored complaints? Yeah, that Jew agression always gets them into trouble.

Dead right on the Palestinian identity thing, though.

" When he was mayor of Paris, he was once accused of being too 'pro-American' "

Yeah, he says lots of nice words about cheeseburgers. What the accusations were about was no doubt that Chirac was insufficiently anti-American because of the lip service he pays to our culture.

He thinks he will succeed with us by flattery, we have seen the real thing in LaFayette. Chiraq is no friend of the US, no matter how many words he says to the contrary. If he truly believes that he is helping America, then he is a moron. What I think he truly believes is that you are morons.

America continues to destroy empires, and the tatters of the French colonial empire is on the list. This is what truly drives Chirac and drove de Villepin.

We know one thing from our history with European empires. The kicking and screaming is always loudest when the pillow is applied to the face, but it always dies down eventually. Such is our relationship with France. You cannot keep information and ideas out much longer. Resistance is futile. Good ideas spread and bad ideas wither.

Good ideas spread and bad ideas wither.

As much as I appreciate the idealism in that, I have trouble finding proof of it.

Look at the Soviet Union, look how China has abaondoned communism.

And look at half the world still rushing to embrace it, idolizing authoritarians, re-writing history (often as it's happening), ignoring the underlying dangers of this psychotic ideology. There are still people who are convinced that the Rosenbergs were innocent victims of the fascist imperialist US. They're petulantly demanding to be allowed to rush headlong into some totalitarian utopia; they hold France's descent into statism as a virtual wonderland. A few hot spots of bad ideas may be withering/have withered, but the bad ideas are absolutely thriving. I suppose the saving grace would be that the former inhabitants of these hot spots seem to fully understand now what they or their forebears espoused so willingly. Even if the rest choose to continue to "tune out" the voices of experience, they'll eventually be experienced themselves. God willing, it will happen soon - run forward, comrades! Onward to destiny.

What happened to fuckfrance.com?