The CIA World Factbook for 2004 just came out today, so here's a little side-by-side comparison of us and France:

Population: 293,027,571 v. 60,424,213 [Ok, we're bigger. Duh.]

Age structure:
0-14 years: 20.8%
15-64 years: 66.9%
65 years and over: 12.4%

v.

0-14 years: 18.5%
15-64 years: 65.1%
65 years and over: 16.4% [We're proportionately younger.]

Population growth rate: 0.92% v. 0.39% [We're also growing a lot faster.]

Death rate: 8.34 deaths/1,000 population v. 9.06 deaths/1,000 population [And dying more slowly. What was that about obese Americans killing themselves with fatty foods?]

Sex ratio (total population): 0.97 male(s)/female v. 0.95 male(s)/female [We're more manly too.]

Infant mortality rate: 6.63 deaths/1,000 live births v. 4.31 deaths/1,000 live births [Ah, but sadly their infants are more likely to live.]

Total fertility rate: 2.07 children born/woman v. 1.85 children born/woman [But then we have more kids.]

Life expectancy at birth: 77.43 years v. 79.44 years [They live longer.]

GDP - real growth rate: 3.1% v. 0.1% [Snarf! Bwahahahaha!]

GDP - per capita: $37,800 v. $27,500 [Oh, and we continue to be the most productive nation in the world per capita.]

Inflation rate (consumer prices): 2.1% v. 2% [We have slightly higher inflation.]

Population below poverty line: 12% v. 6.5% [But those numbers are from 2003 in the U.S. and 2000 in France. That throws things off in light of...]

Unemployment rate: 6.2% v. 9.6% [France's 2003 unemployment rate, which is not only higher than ours but also higher than their percentage below the poverty line.]

Industrial production growth rate: -1% v. 1.1% [France has a higher industrial growth rate, but this squares with the relatively low percentage of our economy that relies on manufacturing anymore.]

Economic aid - donor: $6.9 billion v. $5.4 billion [We give more to other nations. And those are 1997 numbers for us while France's numbers are from 2002.]

Military expenditures - percent of GDP: 3.9% v. 2.6% [We spend more defending ourselves and our allies.]

The US also trails pitifully in other areas... Money's not everything.

More than 160 countries offer guaranteed paid leave to women for childbirth, according to the study. The U.S. Family Medical Leave Act guarantees 12 weeks of unpaid leave to about half of all mothers and nothing for the rest, the study said. ---
Could be why we have this
Infant mortality rate: 6.63 deaths/1,000 live births v. 4.31 deaths/1,000 live births [Ah, but sadly their infants are more likely to live.]

and this
Life expectancy at birth: 77.43 years v. 79.44 years [They live longer.]

I think that the life expectancy figure include the unintentional infant mortality. You don't think they include the partial birth abortions do you? I wonder if you remove the still born from the figures would the life expectancy overall be roughly equal?

The United States also is not among the 76 countries guaranteeing mothers a right to breast-feed while at work.

While at work? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if they are going to breast feed at work, the baby has to be there as well.

So it's only because of our top notch child labor laws that this doesn't happen.

Ummm, I'm not sure if I'm sad or glad about this one....

Money is power and power is freedom to live as you choose, as the sum of your decisions directs. You say our freedom is chimirical, I say that not having experienced it yourself, you have no idea what freedom really means.

Each year, as you get poorer, you will get more resentful of us for 'causing' your poverty. Eventually, you will unite behind a strong leader, (de Villepin wants the job BTW) who will put you all back to making weapons. Then, with the help of your Muslim brothers, you will start *another* world war. At least that seems to be the direction your continent has chosen.

You probably never heard of this man, who was after Al Quaeda long before you gave a shit about terrorism in Europe. Bruguière is partly responsible why AlQuaeda has not thrived in France as much as it has in Spain, Germany, even in the US in the form of Mr Atta.

Not true

I remember Jean-Louis Bruguiere as the man who tried to have the Canadian government pick up the mellinium bomber in Vancouver. The same man was picked up and prosecuted due to Bruguiere's tip to the US government. Also he was assisting in the Moussaoui case, but then the French Government suddenly pulled his plug and left us hanging.
Judge Bruguiere Believes that the war on terror will last a hundred years. Also he claims that Al Queda training operations including chemical and biological weapons have shifted from Afghanistan to Chechnya. He says that Al Queda operatives are here, deep undercover. They do not attend a mosque. They drink alcohol and eat pork. They are waiting for an appropriate moment to launch another attack.

I have a feeling that he would be in favor of something more robust then the Patriot Act, as a tool for law enforcement to use in dealing with terrorism.
Judge Bruguiere said the allied assault on Afghanistan has put al Qaeda's central command out of business. Bin Laden remains an inspiration but is no longer in charge and the world's terror cells are now operating independently. They choose their own targets and provide their own financing, largely through criminal activity.

Old article. It seemed that there was one sane voice in France. Then it seemed that voice was mussled by the appeasment faction. Can't have someone going against the French fashion.

Each year, as you get poorer, you will get more resentful of us for 'causing' your poverty.

US population below poverty line: 12.70% (ranks 14)

France population below poverty line: 4.40% (ranks 6)

http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Population_Below_Poverty_Line_aall.htm

Nice to have the highest ratio of millionaires per capita, but look at the big picture.

Judge Bruguiere Believes that the war on terror will last a hundred years. Also he claims that Al Queda training operations including chemical and biological weapons have shifted from Afghanistan to Chechnya. He says that Al Queda operatives are here, deep undercover. They do not attend a mosque. They drink alcohol and eat pork. They are waiting for an appropriate moment to launch another attack.

Not true? Why not? Seems plausible to me. But maybe you're right, Al Quaeda will be history by June 30th.

I say that not having experienced it yourself, you have no idea what freedom really means.

Oh please, De Prog, please elaborate and explain...

I wonder where Al Queda got those chemical and biological weapons?

Since when did we say the War on Terror would end june 30th? Your confusing the Iraq government handover with the end of the war on terror. Iraq was just a battle.

Your confusing the Iraq government handover with the end of the war on terror.

I was being sarcastic.

Heres another area that the USA trails France on.

Alarmed by the spread of Islamist extremism in Europe, France's new Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin, who was the former Foreign Minister, asked the "Renseignments Generaux," the French equivalent of the FBI's counter-intelligence branch, for a report on what goes on in the country's mosques.

Eighty percent of the imams in the 1,000 mosques surveyed by RG are foreigners; 20 percent French nationals, but only 2 percent born in France. Most of the imams said they are unpaid volunteers dependent on collection plates. In 40 percent of the mosques, imams admitted they were "self-proclaimed" or "improvised" with no theological credentials. Only the Turks could prove they had undergone religious training.

A little over one tenth of the imams surveyed said they were "self-taught" and were getting their religious training on the Internet. Asked to show what web sites they were consulting, they were all pro-al-Qaida. France's domestic intelligence agency also reported a steady increase in inflammatory sermons from Brest to Marseilles. Their attacks on French discrimination against Muslims -- female scarves banned from state schools -- paled next to anti-U.S. diatribes.

Imported "self taught" pro-al-Quida Imams who get their religion off the Internet.

Oh, kinda like Democrats.

lol doug

Judge Bruguiere believes that the war on terror will last a hundred years. Also he claims that Al Queda training operations including chemical and biological weapons have shifted from Afghanistan to Chechnya

Boy, I didn't know Chechnya was an Iraqi province: I guess that makes it the missing link between Saddam, al Qaeda and WMD!

I have a feeling that he would be in favor of something more robust then the Patriot Act, as a tool for law enforcement to use in dealing with terrorism.
You mean that Act that requires librarians to denounce people for what they are reading (I guess freedom of speech doesn't equate freedom of thought)?

Death rate: 8.34 deaths/1,000 population v. 9.06 deaths/1,000 population [And dying more slowly. What was that about obese Americans killing themselves with fatty foods?]

Now that is when "critical thinking" is once again required. Lower death rate doesn't imply that people "die more slowly" unless our American friends, on top of state-organized delusion, also have a knack for SM-style endings. A lower death rate simply reflects the age structure of the population: old people tend to die more often than younger ones. Hence lower death rate per 1000 = less old people per 1000.
That's why Bolivia (7.77/1000) fares better than the US of A. They have .57 granny less than you do, whereas we have .72 more. And you still eat yourself to death (as is reflected in the life expectancy).

I didn't know Chechnya was an Iraqi province: I guess that makes it the missing link between Saddam, al Qaeda and WMD!

I didn't say there was a link between Iraq and Chechnya, but I find it interesting that this is the first thought that crossed your mind.

You mean that Act that requires librarians to denounce people for what they are reading ...

These are intelligences unknown to me. I'll ask the librarian if she is required to report suspitious book reading next time I go. Off hand I would think Librarians have enough trouble catching over due books to worry over content.

That's section 215: the govt can ask for all of your records with no warrant or demonstration that you are actually suspected of anything. I am usually all for trusting the police, but this one does bug me.
More info here.

Straight from the Anti Christian Lawyers Union. Jameel Jaffer seems to be worried that people won't sign up to contribute to the ACLU if their records can be cross referenced with imigration information and internet activities.
I think that the people who would be worried are the ones we are on the look out for. Let them be worried.

Totalfinaelf had Iranian dissenters in Paris arrested in a "you scratch my back we'll scratch yours" deal with the Iranian government

Another example of it being all about the Oil.

Elaborate on Freedom? Why? You sincerely believe that the zookeeper is enslaved and the caged animal free.

There are subtleties about human freedom that you will never understand since you expect the govt to protect you against every risk and the consequence of every decision you make. I can't make you understand them. You do not know what you are missing, and can't.

Dr. Evil, Robert Kagan editorial in Washington Post June 20, 2004. Can’t give you a link, because I’m not registered with them.

Thanks for the tip Andy; I had problems connecting the Post's website and had nearly given up on seeing if he'd written anything new (one paper every 45 days makes him a lazy bum).

Soccer night starts in 1 hour, I will thus make things short. Kagan is somewhat right that more international involvement is needed, but he forgets two things: 1) NATO is a defensive alliance, ie I do not think it would be legally able to act in Irak as "NATO", but rather as an alliance-of-countries-that-do-also-happen-to-belong-to-NATO (but I guess that is more a moral than technical hurdle) and 2) internal politics: the occupation in Irak is still impopular in France and Germany, and domestic opinion will rather see they are stepping into someone else's quagmire rather than the geopolitical implications of a general failure in Iraq (which could also very well happen anyway). Don't you dream that the Resistance's action will abate with time, at least in the early months (or else, why would more troops be needed?). Plus, with the upcoming referenda on the Constitution, Europe (and European governments) will turn on itself and pay less attention to foreign affairs: it won't be the right time to appear doing the mopping-up for Bush's mistakes.

Also, France and Germany are strapped for cash (don't forget the Stability Pact): a foreign intervention will surely be costly, it will thus be cheaper to cancel the Iraqi debt (which they will eventually do, after squeezing as much out of the US as they can) and train local police forces, as they already offered.

The upcoming elections in Iraq are 7 months away. Look how stable the country is after 14 months. Who can seriously think that foreign troops will be out of the country by january 2005? That is why I foresee no further implications of countries that are not already part of the so-called "coalition of the willing".

What do you think of what he wrote?

Note: You can bypass compulsory registration of free sites using bugmenot.com

Where are the refugees?
And why is the Dinar gaining strength? Currency doesn't gain value if the people think the government is going to fold up in a month.

Dr. Evil:
I've been rather strapped for time lately. I have a dentist appointment tommorrow which will allow me to get away from work and respond on the article.

Thanks for the tip on bugmenot!

Let's look at a few more statistics shall we:

Percentage of Americans below the poverty line that own their own home: 45.9%

...that own their own car: 72.8%

...that have air conditioning in their home: 77%

Average size of home for poor Americans: 1,200 square feet.
Average size of home for ALL Europeans: 1,000 square feet.

When it comes down to it, our poor are better off than the middle class in most of the world. That's not to say that they don't have extreme difficulties, but most of the world would sell their own mother to be laid off from Enron.

The poor in the U.S. can still move up to the middle class (and can often become wealthy.) Old Europe still languishes in an informal caste system. Try to comfort yourselves by reminding us that you get more vacation each year.

At least we can afford to go on vacation.

Average size of home for poor Americans: 1,200 square feet.
Average size of home for ALL Europeans: 1,000 square feet
Average population density per sq. Km in the US: 29
Average population density per sq. Km in Europe: About 120.
You better have cheap housing!

More stats:
Household debt: 85% of GDP US - 52% EU
Household savings rate: 2% US - 10% EU

Here's my favourite:
Household debt-to-income ratio: 115% US - 85% France (found no integrated EU stats).
You people are spending money you do not have!
I wonder what will happen when the Chinese banking system crunches and is not able to finance your lifestyle anymore. Ever wondered about the meaning of "flexible" in "flexible mortgage rates"?

Dr Evil, regarding Robert Kagans article:

Kagan may indeed be correct about more international involvement, but, like you, I feel it isn’t going to happen. The best thing about the June 8 UN resolution was that it takes wind out of the sails of Kerry. I haven’t heard him speak much of the “international community” much (not that I’m listening to him) since then. I think that everyone can agree that even going to the US was of no help, militarily, anyway. Mend some bridges? Maybe. Right thing to do? Absolutely, especially for Iraq, and right now that is what really matters. Get that place turned around, no matter how it got to the way it is.

Kagen says that Chirac’s (and the Germans) position opposing NATO troops to Iraq is “an abdication of international responsibility”, and that you can’t pick and choose if you are in an alliance. But, I guess you guys see Bush’s “unilateral” move the same way. I see one point the same as you as far as France abstaining at this point: money. That “centralized EU” government and military is going to cost you all a bundle over there. Where will the money come from? (um, speaking of spending money you don’t have….).

Another point he makes is how thinly stretched the NATO troops are now with action in Afghanistan, etc. Germany has about 1800 troops there plus some in Balkans, France 500 or so there. I realize there are French troops in your “colonies;)” as well. Could it be with the upcoming EU constitution, Franco-German alliance doesn’t want to show how stressed (I was going to say weak, but changed my mind) it may be militarily? It wouldn’t look well to the smaller countries that are already feeling the push of France/Germany to present a single foreign and defense policy (with perhaps a more anti-American stance than they held before) if the two EU “leaders” are tapped out going into Afghanistan and Iraq. Especially since NATO may be sending more troops to Afghanistan after the summit (next week? This week?) and asking France/Germany to send more.

The rest of his article is OK. But, Dr. Evil, if you read one of his older articles, this one is just the reverse. In previous articles, he was calling for the US to go the “international route”. Go to the UN, act like an “ally”. This article he is telling NATO members to act like an “ally”. So, where is the correct route? Middle of the road maybe?

You mention some points about NATO being a defensive alliance, and not being able to act in Iraq as ‘NATO’. If NATO help in Iraq was structured like in Afghanistan it would be able to assist. In Afghanistan it is set up under International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), which NATO calls a “security assistance mission and not a peacekeeping mission”, set up to “provide a safe and secure environment conducive to free and fair elections, the spread of the rule of law, and the reconstruction of the country”. Wow, sounds like just what Iraq needs, does it not? So, if there was a will, I’m sure NATO could find a way.

BTW, I noticed that NATO’s AWAC aircraft were patrolling over Portugal to protect against terrorist threats against the Euro soccer matches. Nice to see that they know what is really important.;)

OK, I’m wrapping up here. I, as well as you see no additions to the “coalition of the willing” as evidenced by this quote from an “unnamed source” I saw the other day (I will say that French Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie was at the meeting….). She, er, it said “…unlikely to back a NATO role (in Iraq) before the US presidential elections (in November).”

Dr. Evil:

Average size of home for poor Americans: 1,200 square feet.
Average size of home for ALL Europeans: 1,000 square feet.
Average size of home for ALL Americans: 2,200 square feet.

My point, which you unsuccessfully tried to deflect, is that the poor in the United States have it very good comparatively speaking.

”Household debt-to-income ratio: 115% US - 85% France (found no integrated EU stats).
You people are spending money you do not have! :

Americans overwhelmingly own their own homes. The money that Europeans spend on rent, Americans spend on home mortgages. Yes, this means that we have a much higher household debt ratio. It also means that we have accumulated a great deal more wealth when the mortgage is paid off. In thirty years Americans own a home. Europeans have purchased their landlord a home.

Size doesn't matter ;-)

Everything is relative, Bildo. While your poor enjoy 200 square foot of more living space than the average European (link?) and may have bigger cars too, we take much better care of our disadvantaged children, and offer a much more flexible and simplified health care to all.

This link on health care would have been more apropriate.

zoomerx:

The lack of socialized medicine in the United States receives a constant berating by the international press. From the article you linked to:

”Some health economists raised concerns about the method used to compile the rankings, in which several Mediterranean countries scored unexpectedly high. Tiny countries with few patients to care for - San Marino, Andorra, Malta - crowd the top spots.”

-In Europe, you may have to wait 6-12 months to receive a test, such as an MRI or CAT scan, that we would be able to have done immediately.

-It is illegal for any emergency room in the United States to turn away a person in need of care, regardless of their ability to pay.

-The United States subsidizes the cost of medicine for the rest of the world. We pay more for drugs so that Canadians and Europeans can buy them cheaper and the third world can often get them for free.

-Nine of the last ten Nobel Prize in Medicine recipients are in the United States.

-Something unheard of in the United States, Britain has a waiting list for surgeries of over a million people.

Healthcare in the United States is not perfect, but I have yet to see another system that functions better.

Bildo - you need to understand that in socio-think, health care is about taking care of your finances, not your health. This restructuring of the methodology is to de-emphasize the focus on health in favor of wealth redistribution.

What the hell forms the pro french minds on this board? I read nothing but intelelctual retardation coming from their posts.
a fool like zoomerex explaining-
"we take much better care of our disadvantaged children, and offer a much more flexible and simplified health care to all".
Are you out of your mind you spoon-fed little welfare prick? It would take another 30 years of war in Iraq to approach the level of 15,000 deaths that oocured in france last summer. Deaths that occured due to the fact that the failed frogs give not a shit about anybody but their own pathetic selves. And their grand failures on an individual level transpire into their society. you damn frogs out to keep your swarmy mouths shut untill you have just ONE measure of success in your lives. Words like those that come from zoomerex
prove the french mind is nothing but a swamp full of child-like shit. You little phuk head, stand back as you watch your country fail.

In Europe, you may have to wait 6-12 months to receive a test, such as an MRI or CAT scan, that we would be able to have done immediately.

Not where I am. Not in France or Germany. BTW, didn't you read the link?

It is illegal for any emergency room in the United States to turn away a person in need of care, regardless of their ability to pay.

True, but you will pay eventually, one way or another, which is a consequence of the overall problem. Think about it.

Nine of the last ten Nobel Prize in Medicine recipients are in the United States.

Admirable, but nothing to do with health care system and child care.

Deaths that occured due to the fact that the failed frogs give not a shit about anybody but their own pathetic selves.

What do you call 40 million plus Americans with no health insurance whatsoever, Sherlock? Child poverty in the US ranking at the bottom? Again, read the links (want more?) and debate instead of waiving your flag and pumping your fist, fat ass.

It would take another 30 years of war in Iraq to approach the level of 15,000 deaths that oocured in france last summer. Deaths that occured due to the fact that the failed frogs give not a shit about anybody but their own pathetic selves
Thank you for this once again fascinating piece of thinking, but I am afraid I have to bring corrections. Official numbers for Switzerland -a country with a fully privatized healthcare system and no known healthcare issues- were released a few weeks ago: the death rate for the month of august was around 30% above average in major cities like Geneva, Basel or Zurich. Explanation: people were not used to such heat (52 days long heatwave in Geneva). Likewise, overall death rate in Marseille, in the south of France, was somewhat close to normal since the extreme heat felt somewhat normal to locals.

But I guess that trying to find explanations and answers is totally irrelevant since you seem quite ready to provide us with your own, pre-packaged ones.

Now on to discussing serious things with the only serious american mind on this forum (following post).

A statistic NOT mentioned in the article (of course) :
the murder rate in the USA is SEVEN TIMES higher than in France.
Despite the fact your country ranks third only to china and Iran in the number of executions a year.
Despite the fact that the USA have the highest incarceration rate IN THE WORLD.

13% of black males between 25 and 29 in the USA are imprisoned. 4.8% of all adult black. That's almost 5 out of every 100 adult black males imprisoned. But 'only' 1.3 % of the whites males are in jail.

Andy,

The best thing about the June 8 UN resolution was that it takes wind out of the sails of Kerry.
True. If Bush does Kerry politics, that makes one of the two irrelevant.

I haven’t heard him speak much of the “international community” much (not that I’m listening to him) since then.
..Or maybe he is again one step ahead and realized that the "international community" is not too eager about joining the mess. This sort of message wouldn't fare well in a campaign, I believe.

I agree with you all the way down until:

That “centralized EU” government and military is going to cost you all a bundle over there. Where will the money come from?
The "centralized EU" government is right now about 35,000 people strong (8,000 of which are translators). Compare this with 1,9 million federal civil servants in the US. There is no European government. Just a bunch of people ensuring that treaties are being observed and implemented at the national level (that's an EU keyword: subsidiarity (you'll need to scroll down a bit, there is no anchor in their text) - everything is being dealt with at the lowest level possible, the EU steps in only for transnational issues like competition rules, the Euro and the Agricultural policy). There is therefore some margin for government growth, which the so-called "Constitutional treaty" doesn't call for anyway. Resources mainly come from custom duties, national contributions and a bit of the VAT: the EU's budget (less than 100bn Euros - about 1pc of our GDP) can legally not entertain a deficit (not like a real state!).

This said, comes the military question: would one Supereuropean army cost more? Think of it the other way: how redundant is it to have 25 secret services, 25 different military bureaucracies, 25 accounting, oil, food, research, etc... services? While the US spend more money on their armed forces than Europe, it also has HUGE economies of scale by not making 25 times the same thing. Saving money would imply a huge loss of sovereignty though, and I do not think many countries are ready for this step yet. Plus, four EU nations are strictly neutral. How would you fit them in?
Therefore, no European army before long, Constitutional treaty or not.

Could it be with the upcoming EU constitution, Franco-German alliance doesn’t want to show how stressed it may be militarily?
No, it doesn't really matter. The fiercest opponent to German oversea military involvement is anyway Germany itself (guess WWhy?).

It wouldn’t look well to the smaller countries that are already feeling the push of France/Germany to present a single foreign and defense policy
It would bug them if the Franco-German Bund would try to speak in their name (which they were careful so far not to do, as opposite to the "New Europe"). But then maybe smaller countries would enjoy wielding a military power so far unreachable to them (heard of the Great Luxemburgian Armada of 1215? - neither did they).

(with perhaps a more anti-American stance than they held before)
No, I don't see the point, Europeans are still staunch American allies (see Afghanistan). They are not just vassals and sometimes need to disagree (a subtle difference that seems to elude a few people's comprehension here).

I totally agree with the rest of what you said, particularly about NATO countries finding a way to show up in Iraq if they really wanted to.

BTW, I noticed that NATO’s AWAC aircraft were patrolling over Portugal to protect against terrorist threats against the Euro soccer matches.
Yep. Better watch for terrorist Cessna planes dropping hand grenades on jam-packed western stadiums in front of 2bn viewers.

Ok that's it, I've been pretty verbose too. Nice Alliot-Marie, er, anonymous quote: did you expect anyone going to do Bush any favour before the election, after all the arrogant we-don't-need-you-anyway trouble he caused? :-)

Do you also happen to read Krugman in the NYT? he's been rather focused on Obersturmfuhrer Ashcroft, lately. Waddaya think?

After spending a week hosting Europeans for business purposes I now see the futility of this argument. It is a dialog of the deaf. The US has been so successfully demonized in Europe (We elected Bush, you can't demonize him without demonizing us) that constructive conversation is impossible.

Here is what I gleaned from my days posting at Pave.

We believe in the greatest good for the greatest number even if it means that some are poor and that the most capable and productive get the most wealth.

You believe in equal good for everybody, even if in absolute terms it means that everybody is poor and even if it discourages your most productive citizens from working harder.

You believe in the greatest freedom for the greatest number even if it restricts the freedoms of the most capable bringing them down to the level of the limited ideas of freedom of the masses, that is freedom to take long vacations away from productive work, and freedom to retire early on the backs of your children.

We believe in individual freedom, even if there are many who are poorly equiped from birth to take full advantage of it.

You believe that the Arab world is better off under the firm hand of brutal dictators, mainly because you think that they can keep their populations under control and so keep you safe.

We used to believe that, we see now that that is wrong.

You don't have any problem with state controlled information, fundimentally, because you see that it advances your beleifs. I think that this comes from your 'nations' being smaller, and more akin to a tribe.

In the US, we are each different from the other on many more issues than one Frenchman or Brit is from another. Therefore we will never settle as a nation on one source for news and trust it completly. We ask ourselves who is telling us what and why are they doing it. It seems that these questions never arise in the European mind.

These different premises lead to different logical conclusions about how to act in the world. The only way to truly judge who is right and who is wrong is to let history unfold. That is, unless, as I believe, history starts going the way of the other side and so your press needs to 'rewrite' it.

You believe that the Arab world is better off under the firm hand of brutal dictators, mainly because you think that they can keep their populations under control and so keep you safe.

Mostly because it's none of our business, but you're right about keeping their population under control (and the money flowing) to our advantage. BTW, is the world safer now?

We used to believe that, we see now that that is wrong.

Choosing the "lesser evil" while turning a blind eye is something we all prefer, including the US, you're being a bit hypocritical here. Saddam's brutality was never a major issue before the Irak invasion, and the lack of WMD's. There's still a long list of brutal dictators you seem to have no problem with. The reality is that we're all willing to do the "right" thing when it suits us, that includes you as well.

We elected Bush, you can't demonize him without demonizing us
Oh please, let us not start this election crap again. Also, Bush is not America (no matter how much you'd like him to be). If he were, then the US would be some sort of monarchy (the "I am the State" thing). A Dem president will come after this Republican one or the next (and then a Republican, etc.), and that is America. We have therefore every right to dislike your current administration and still appreciate your country.
(As a matter of fact, I even went to see an American movie tonight, enjoyed it, and thus sent a few dollars to your entertainment industry).

What I gleaned from my own days posting at Pave is that there's a lot of stubborn, narrow-minded hicks that have an internet connection.

Do you also happen to read Krugman in the NYT
Sorry, don’t do much reading of the Times. Once in a while I’ll find one on the Metro, but generally I don’t read it. I get 3 papers delivered at home and, quite frankly, it’s all I can do to keep up with reading them. You’ll have to keep us posted. I’ll have a bit more time after 15 July to allow more reading.

ALL U.S. READERS: I would suggest Dr. Evil’s link about the EU. (I’ve brought the home page link down here) Check out about the EU/USA relations at EU Some pretty informative things about the EU. It’s not all rah rah EU, either. There is some “self-examination” in there as well with US relations, etc. Worth the time to look at it. If you don’t like France, find out about Poland :)

Oh please, let us not start this election crap again
Oh, yes, lets. Explain to me how those countries that are against sending NATO troops to Iraq because they don’t want to “bail” out Bush, and will not even consider doing anything in Iraq until after the US presidential elections are any different that those who manipulated the elections in Spain? Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not equating them in an evil way, just the gut level “election manipulation” level.

As a matter of fact, I even went to see an American movie tonight, enjoyed it, and thus sent a few dollars to your entertainment industry
Please tell me it was not M. Moore’s flick!

soon we will have one world government and spaceships will be launched by private investors. McDonalds will build its moonport as an easy way to restock its shelves in the Martian colonies.
Did you know that Moon dust is highly concentrated helium 3 isotopes which when processed leave water, hydrogen, and oxygen, as waste material. (oops, I think that was a state secret)
Europe is far from unified. Take for instance the names of food products. Some (hell most every) towns in Europe have their place name ascribed to a certain food item. See if some of these ring a bell; Bologna, Cheddar, Gouda, Roquefort, Sherry, Port, Cognac, Parmasian, Bordeaux, Champagne, Gorgonzola, Munster. Every one of these tiny specks of population, which would be unknown to the world if not for their association with a food type, want to have exclusive proprietary rights to the names on the food labels. Under EU proposed global pact geographic location would trump ancient trademarks. Any food named "roquefort" which isn't made in some arbitrary region known as Roquefort could not be distributed in any of the EU countries.
Stupidity centralized is still stupidity. One company which imports wine to Portugal, named their Port "starboard" to get around the twisted logic of the backwards Europeans. Soon people will ask for Port at a restaurant and the waiter will go "Excuse me sir, what is port?"

As a matter of fact, I even went to see an American movie tonight, enjoyed it, and thus sent a few dollars to your entertainment industry

If I had to add up in dollar amount what I have contributed to US industries... proof that one can disagree with some US policies without being a narrow-minded sheep.

Dr. Evil:

”Not where I am. Not in France or Germany. BTW, didn't you read the link?”

yes, from the artice:

”Some health economists raised concerns about the method used to compile the rankings, in which several Mediterranean countries scored unexpectedly high. Tiny countries with few patients to care for - San Marino, Andorra, Malta - crowd the top spots.”

”True, but you will pay eventually, one way or another, which is a consequence of the overall problem. Think about it.”

I know, but the constant tales that the U.S. medical system is so hard on its’ poor are mostly myths.

”Admirable, but nothing to do with health care system and child care.”

You don’t think research has anything to do with a healthcare system? (Way to throw in a quick “But what about the children? Line. Irrelevant, but effective)

”Child poverty in the US ranking at the bottom?”

Bottom of what?

”No, I don't see the point, Europeans are still staunch American allies (see Afghanistan). They are not just vassals and sometimes need to disagree (a subtle difference that seems to elude a few people's comprehension here).”

France and Germany specifically tried to subvert American goals. That is not simply disagreeing. Saddam might have capitulated if the world had shown a united front; instead, he received assurances from France that they would stall the United States in the UN. That is not the work of “staunch allies.” France has shown that they no longer wish to be allies with the U.S.

”Do you also happen to read Krugman in the NYT? he's been rather focused on Obersturmfuhrer Ashcroft, lately. Waddaya think?”

A former Enron advisor, turned Leftist political pundit? An idiot that helped destroy one of the largest corporations in the world through fraud. No thanks.

I didn't know Krugman had worked at Enron's accounting department.

Please tell me it was not M. Moore’s flick
M.Moore's movie is not out yet where I live. I rather went to see "Supersize me". Very different from a Moore movie: no secret McDo conspiracy, it just turns what everybody knows (fries are fat and coke is sweet) into a fun movie. Not the greatest documentary ever, but still worth my money. Weirdly enough, I came out of it with a craving for a nice, juicy burger.

In the US, we are each different from the other on many more issues than one Frenchman or Brit is from another. Therefore we will never settle as a nation on one source for news and trust it completly.
Ah ah ah. Just like when your president admits he rarely reads newspapers?

Then if you don't settle on one source for news, why don't you people question your president's inability to provide you with WMD or serious ties between Iraq and al Qaeda? Am I to expect that if the independant commission (who checked various sources) were to prove this administration wrong, you'd turn democrat or at least ask for an impeachment procedure?

Am I to expect that if the independant commission (who checked various sources) were to prove this administration wrong, you'd turn democrat or at least ask for an impeachment procedure?

Aren't you tired of that straw man yet?

In "Farenheit 911", you will of course find out that dubious Saudi connections, greed, and turning a blind eye when it suits your financial interests is not unique to France... nothing really new.

You will also find out that the Bush administration is responsible for ice cream headache, ovarian cancer, and continental drift.

The continental drift thing needs to be double-checked :)

Indeed.

Am I to expect that if the independent commission (who checked various sources) were to prove this administration wrong, you'd turn democrat or at least ask for an impeachment procedure?

All this does is make me wonder whether all of these American commissions are really, really ready for the challenges of the war on terror.

As my friends that work in, ahem, “intelligence” tell me the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Or something like that.

All the commission said was “we have no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States”.

That is a lot different than the newspaper headlines that said “BUSH LIES VOTE KERRY”.

What do I think?

Al Qaeda links with Iraq. I believe this.
Saddam links to 9/11. Nope.
Government agencies with their heads up their asses before 9/11 and Iraq war? Yup.

WMD?. Before, I along with millions of others thought so. But that is the downside of a pre-emptive war. But we can be sure that Saddam will not give WMD to terrorists. Somebody else from Iraq at a later date? Nope.

Can you “diplomats” make the same claim about Iran? Doesn’t look good on that end. Let us know if you want us to “liberate” them.

BTW, Bastile Day celebration here in DC at the French Embassy. Visit and see how your (French) tax dollars are spent. I’ve been to the French Embassy before for two functions. Not official stuff, mind you, but they had a wine tasting once (pre Iraq war) and an art exhibit that I saw.

One has to pay now for Bastille day parties? Hell, it used to be free (and casual attire), at least in Canada.

the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Or something like that.
Nice sentence, but it basically means that if you can't be proven guilty, you still have to demonstrate your own innocence?
Following this line of thought, I guess most people can buy their tickets to Guantanamo: how can one prove for instance he hasn't had a secret meeting with Osama, or spent his sunday building dirt bomb parts? It'd take a 24/7 video recording of one's life. How would it work out with a whole country?

Re: Iran. Pakistan and N.Korea admittedly sold/bought/traded nuclear tech, and we're still waiting for the healthy spanking you seem to promise to wrongdoers. Diplomacy may be frustrating, but "preventive" war is altogether unrealistic.

and we're still waiting for the healthy spanking you seem to promise to wrongdoers

The $audis and Pakistan have a special status with the US ;-)

Sort of like the Axis Of Evil-Friends.

The KSA is only evil in an unofficial compacity (if you can overlook their admittedly abhorent and arbitrary legal system), in the mean time Saudi Arabia stablizes the oil market. Pakistan is grudgingly assisting in the fight against the Taliban and Al Queda. We can't go invading countries because of the illegal actions of their citizens. What ever else Musharif is doing, he does enforce the law. Plus he is quite a bit more helpful then the French Government.

He doesn't have any choice...

Which is exactly why he doesn't need a spanking.