And dumb.
He went bonkers when President Bush dared challenge France's notion of empire - by supporting Turkey's bid to join the EU.
Stung by Mr Bush's call for the EU to give Turkey a firm date for accession, Mr Chirac responded: "He not only went too far but he has gone into a domain which is not his own.No, jackass - it's not. We'd at least thank them for their input. And since when is the EU just part of French "domain"?"He has nothing to say on this subject. It is as if I were to tell the United States how it should conduct its relations with Mexico."
Way to go, Jock. True colors, all of them yellow.
Speaking of Turkey...
What all this about Bush and Turkey?
It seems like just a few minutes ago when President Chirac was reminding us that sometimes it is good to have friendly advice. Sounds like Chirac is being anti muslim. How else to explain his being dead set against Turkey, the only European Muslim democracy, joining the EU?
The Islamic Human Rights Commission (WTF? no doubt headquartered in Libya) named Chirac an Islamaphobe along with President Bush and Prime Minister Sharon. Sounds like good company to me. Bet Jacque will take it as an insult.
Turkey can't be part of E.U.
Anyway why do they want to be part of it' E.U. sucks!!!
Like their fckng constitution, they have been 2 years writing that shit!!! I don't wanna be ruled by socialburocrappers, it's hard enough to me to be ruled by spanish surrenders. Just leave me alone please, just let me take my own decisions like getting a green card or something.
Mike,
You're gonna love that one:
"We are friends (of the United States), we are allies. We are not servants, of course. And when we don't agree we don't say it aggressively but we say it in a firm manner," French President Jacques Chirac told a news conference. . .
Chirac also vetoed a U.S. proposal to deploy NATO's new strike force for the Afghan elections, a move one U.S. official said had infuriated Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai had pressed NATO to rush troops to his country to secure the September polls, embarrassing allies reluctant to provide forces for the mission.
I will repeat it again: do not forgive and do not forget. After all, you're not servants either, are you?
And yes zoomerx, I am French and I do live in underdeveloping France.
"We are friends (of the United States), we are allies. We are not servants, of course. And when we don't agree we don't say it aggressively but we say it in a firm manner," French President Jacques Chirac told a news conference.
That's most of the world's opinion, actually, let's be honest. Chirac happens to be the boogeyman and dares to say it, and I'm no great fan of Le Ver .
"...And when we don't agree we don't say it aggressively but we say it in a firm manner," French President Jacques Chirac told a news conference
I wait to hear Chirac saying something agressively to the Chinese, their new found "friend". Say for instance, your oppinion of Chinese forces seizing Tibet or Nepal or Kashmir or Tiawan.
Thanks so much for honoring your NATO committment in Afghanistan, bit bothered by your luke warm support in placing your troops well out of harms way in Mazr il Sharif. Fat lot of good they will do there reasserting the dominace of the people who are already committed to the electorial process.
The main thing that I object to about President Bush's policy is his stubborn dedication to trying to win over France and Germany . I wish to God he would give up on you losers already, and plan his actions accordingly.
Who says France has not honored its NATO commitment in Afghanistan? France is the largest contributor of forces there with the US, Germany, Australia and the UK. France was the only non-US army to air-strike Taliban positions at the begining of the conflict along with the US. French air/naval bases in Djibouti were used by the US to land and refuel. Afghan officers are trained and paid by France. And that's just for the military contribution. I bet you did not bother to know, did you?
bit bothered by your luke warm support in placing your troops well out of harms way in Mazr il Sharif.
The US calls the shots. You're the boss, remember?
I wish France's forces were as large and as expendable as the US, but they're not. However, most of the policing around the world is done by the US, the UK and France. It's nice to have French forces when you need them (like the Foreign Legion cleaning up your shit in Mogadishiu for example, or evacuating your citizens from Liberia and Ivory Coast) isn't it?
And yes zoomerx, I am French and I do live in underdeveloping France.
Personne ne t'empeche de partir, Carine... Un jour je l'ai fait, comme ca, comme beaucoup d'autres Francais. Il ya du "bien" et du "moins bien" partout.
@ zoomerx
Upon meeting you I would first snap your filthy french neck like a little stick.
You pathetic little whore of a prik- your country is a disgrace and you are so full of szhit with the comments you make that I judge your whole pitiful country to be simply insane, prehistoric, backwards and so very swine like.
Whta "policing" do the french do you little bitch? 250 troops to it's colonial french speaking backwater in haiti? wow, big commitment you little prik.
"the foreign legion cleaning up our mess in moghadisu"... HA! you damn idiot! the foreign legion is NOTHING but a bunch of country-less two bit whore Vichy lovers who cannot fight their way out from a closed paper sack you damn imbecile.
The Us left Soamlais so as to not be in a situation whereby the UN ahs any say in how we operate. That WAS a UN mission you spoon fed little welfare bitch. What did you "clean up" afterthe US left other than the latrines which is all you are capable of "cleaning up".
ANd where in the fuk do you get the idea that the french evacuated US troops from liberia you shit for brained idiot? What did you do, send in a broken french holicoptor for a one way evac ride? You are pathetic and your country even more so. It is obvious that some day the US will be at war with france and I can assure you that I will find your little head and crush it like a badly festering french pimple. You cowardly pieces of french filth have NOT ONE military, intellectual or economic success in decades, HOW can you write the crap yo ualways do?
You duplicitous little welfare whore sharks the french gave bombing target info to Milosovich during your handicapped affair on your own continent. Just as the US purposely bombed the Chinese embassy in Sarajevo for sending electronic jamming and troops data to the Serbs- we should have sunk or killed your pathetic little set of forces for that action alone.
You pathetic imbecile- take a look around you and your country and please note ALL the places on the planet that speak french. Please just hang off their tits for the next century and stay the living hell away from the US as we have no time for you backwards neanderthal thinking shit-for-brained idiots in france.
Pato: poster-boy for the "Ugly American" loathed around the world....
Did you ever leave your shithole, Pato? You should, it's a big, beautiful world out there. On second thought, don't embarass yourself. I heard Disneyland Florida is pretty cool.
ANd where in the fuk do you get the idea that the french evacuated US troops from liberia you shit for brained idiot?
Here, moron, and I never said "troops".
As far as criticizing the FFL, you obviously have no clue whatsoever.
Go easy on cheap wine, Pato, that stuff will kill you.
You don't even really need to sign your name Pato - Very distinctive style.
My opinions of your pathetic welfare whore nation have been culled by an over exposure to that country and your citezens through numerous forced visits. I can piss from one end of your country to the other, and have spent time all over the damn globe and palces I loathed the most and met the most whorelike freaks have been french speaking countries. Just think where french is spoken you dick-less little flea brain and you'll know what I mean, perhaps. WHy has no other nations embraced yo uare your pathetic culture?
You want fantasy you spoon-fed little prik? Go spend a day at the "beach" on the Sein.
Whta pathetic hypocritical and duplicitous little pussy fucks you french are.
Just look and listen to yourselves, you little do-nothing worthless bitch.
"NO War for chocolate in the Cote' you tough little dick-less french pussys!"
Who says France has not honored its NATO commitment in Afghanistan? France is the largest contributor of forces there with the US, Germany, Australia and the UK.
Zoomerx, I don’t think that statement is correct, unless you mean something else other than the 6500 or so troops that are in Afghanistan now, helping the 20,000+ US soldiers. The NATO website lists Germany with 1909, Canada with 1576, and France with 565.
565 troops, how brave, how noble, how contemporary a gesture for a UN mission from a dying country such as france.
Don't choke on your contributions to the world you little impotent french pussys.
Mogadishu ? that isn't ours, and if France has been involved in Somalia there are sure to be mitigating monetary factors, because there is no way France would put themselves out for the good of Muslims. Lets see could it be Somalia pimping and whoring?
The Beeb mentions your oil interests but nothing of any humanitary mission.
Pato
Your posts should have a rating system. Like "not suitable for children under the age of 17 "
through numerous forced visits.
Such as?
Just think where french is spoken you dick-less little flea brain and you'll know what I mean, perhaps.
Why are the 2 UN official languages English and French, Sherlock? Get a map, get a clue (French was also the diplomatic language of England and Russia at one time, but I don't want to overload you pathetic little brain with History lessons). French is also spoken by many non-French Europeans with a minimum of culture, but what would you know about "second language" pato, when you can't even write English properly?
WHy has no other nations embraced yo uare your pathetic culture?
Well, we had our days, now it's your turn. But you're right, going to Kentucky Fried "Chicken" in Beijing was a life changing experience. Thank you Pato.
I would also remind you that not so long ago when Americans (and Poles, and Irish etc...) could not express themselves freely in their own country because of their ideologies or worse, the color of their skin (tssk tssk), that "pathetic culture" is who they embraced.
Lastly, your Bill Of Rights was also based on ideas borrowed from this same "pathetic culture" (you know, that "worthless" country that saved your ass )...
So... You hate the French, good for you, but think again before spewing your pathetic little racist comments.
You want fantasy you spoon-fed little prik? Go spend a day at the "beach" on the Sein.
Pervert. You've been there, haven't you?
"NO War for chocolate in the Cote' you tough little dick-less french pussys!"
So boycott chocolate too (chances are, it may come from Ivory Coast) and shut the fuck up.
Mogadishu ? that isn't ours, and if France has been involved in Somalia there are sure to be mitigating monetary factors, because there is no way France would put themselves out for the good of Muslims.
Monetary factors like what, dried bananas? The French Foreign Legion was on a peace keeping mission there, cleaning up the shit you left after you bailed out pronto.
France corrupted by oil interests, Papertiger? Absolutely. But not the US, noooo, never. I'm trying not to laugh.
andy,
I think it's more than that, but I have never disputed the ammount of troops. France should send more? Absolutely, I'm not disputing that. Note that the US was glad to use Djibouti (French base and one of several French Foreign Legion posts) as a launching base for the Taliban airstrikes ealy on. Credit in the US media? Nothing. And where the hell is Djibouti , eh Pato?
Zoomer
The French Foreign Legion was on a peace keeping mission there, cleaning up the shit you left after you bailed out pronto.
Like show me. From all I have read Somalia is still a hellhole. It was a hellhole when our troops landed there, and it is a hellhole today.
What exactly did the French foreign legion clean up?
The regularity of kidnappings in the Somali capital Mogadishu is a sign of continuing chaos in the war-ravaged country. "source"
Many people waved pictures of Bin Laden in the air and buses are also displaying his photo in their windows with the caption: "Osama Bin Laden, the Hero of Islam."
The United Nations has pulled its international staff out of Somalia after being told flights to and from Mogadishu can no longer be insured after the suicide attacks on the United States.source
Every day it is the same ballet of small planes, five or six of them, landing by mid-morning within minutes of each other.
"This plane could carry 1,400 kilos of freight", explained "Sofi" - the manager of one of the many light aircraft companies based at Nairobi's Wilson airport - as we were leaving.
So we took off with 1,000 kilogrammes of precious "khat" - a mild narcotic plant very popular among Somalis - for the three-hour trip. the only air traffic is drug traffic
Village elder Abdoullaye Aden says, "Most of the trees have died. No crops have grown. The earth has turned to dust. There's hardly any water - none in the wells. Most of the livestock has died."
The threat of US action has already prompted the fragile transitional government in Mogadishu, to lock up several alleged terrorist suspects, some thought to be of Iraqi origin.
But opposition militia says this is not enough. They've been fuelling American fears, seeking to turn the war on terrorism to their own advantage.
The one bank in the country was closed for funding Al Queda (not very shrewd biting the hand that feeds them)
Somalia has been without a recognised central government since the collapse of Mohamed Siad Barre's regime in January 1991.
Recent attempts to establish a new authority, based in the capital Mogadishu, have had mixed results. And much power still lies with armed factions and warlords who are notorious for switching allegiance.
A dozen warlords squabbling over who gets the khat dealership, while regular people flee or die. I wish I could say I care, but my opinion is Boo friggin Hoo.
The one constant in the Somali's life is that it is one f***ed up place. I don't see much evidence of this French clean up your talking about Zoomer.
For what i know, and i accept i don't have a large knowledge about this, France never asked for permisiion to act in Africa as they thought was necessary. Why should USA do the same? all these ONU rules are just necessary whaen Israel or USA acts, if not no one gives a fuck.
"We are friends (of the United States), we are allies. We are not servants, of course. And when we don't agree we don't say it aggressively but we say it in a firm manner," French President Jacques Chirac told a news conference"
Sure, you can tell that with a dozen of roses and a bottle of Dóm Perignon but it will be still a lie cos everyone knows your deals with Saddam, mr Chirac, it was all about the oil.
Personne ne t'empeche de partir, Carine... Un jour je l'ai fait, comme ca, comme beaucoup d'autres Francais. Il ya du "bien" et du "moins bien" partout.
Ah, on tutoie. Je vois le genre. "Personne ne t'empêche de partir, camarade", right?
Don't worry. I won't soil France much longer.
Btw, I never pretended France was all bad and America was all good. The fact is - no pot worshipper needed here - that France is in complete decline while the US is prospering. Live with it. Get high. Or do something about it. But refrain from lecturing the US.
Why are the 2 UN official languages English and French?
Ummm, American Power, and past France imperialism?
Fun Facts: Bismarck's first act as foreign minister was to instruct Prussian representatives abroad that they must write their reports in German-previously they had been in French.
@zoomerx
...through numerous forced visits.
you asked>> Such as?
Being forced to attend meetings with frenchman wearing suits and ties from 1970 while talking about how they can lift and copy more technologies from my company. I spent my whole time laughing at the backwards approach of the french businessman, and wondering what it was that made their ideas come from a garbage can 20 yrs ago and already proved to be failures, and yet they try to recycle the ideas. Look at Messier taking Universal (a US film company), giving it a french touch and then milking BILLIONS from the shareholders, then driving the company into the ground- and you'll perhaps get the picture.
Just think where french is spoken you dick-less little flea brain and you'll know what I mean, perhaps.
>>Why are the 2 UN official languages English and French, Sherlock? Get a map, get a clue (French was also the diplomatic language of England and Russia at one time, but I don't want to overload you pathetic little brain with History lessons). French is also spoken by many non-French Europeans with a minimum of culture, but what would you know about "second language" pato, when you can't even write English properly?
There you go basing your self worth from what the UN(!!!) does for you or your language. How pathetic you little fool, that you cannot get glory on your own without the UN which the US created. You talk about french being used by the British 300 years ago. What the hell is wrong with you that you have to reach for such desperate comparisons from centuries ago?
Why has no other nations embraced your pathetic culture?
>> Well, we had our days, now it's your turn. But you're right, going to Kentucky Fried "Chicken" in Beijing was a life changing experience. Thank you Pato.
I take it some Yank grabbed you off the street in Beijing and dragged you forcefully in to visit the Colonel and eat his chicken? I haven't ate that shit in about 20 years. And I take it that all the Chinese came up to you and begged your pathetic french ass to "stand up to the Americans and have them take this chicken away!"??? damn imbecile.
>> I would also remind you that not so long ago when Americans (and Poles, and Irish etc...) could not express themselves freely in their own country because of their ideologies or worse, the color of their skin (tssk tssk), that "pathetic culture" is who they embraced.
There is not an Irishman on this planet who embraces anything french. Not so long ago? Like what 1840's New York?
>>> Lastly, your Bill Of Rights was also based on ideas borrowed from this same "pathetic culture" (you know, that "worthless" country that saved your ass )...
Ahh, a frenchman who still thinks he's "saved the US ass". Wow, you people are really pathetic and desperate.
>>> So... You hate the French, good for you, but think again before spewing your pathetic little racist comments.
One thing you euro fools need to know- RACISM is attacking someone for the COLOR OF THEIR SKIN.. NOT their ideologies. Get that straight you little prik. Another poor little small-minded frenchman OPPRESSED by the US.... sue me at the ICC you damn fool.
You want fantasy you spoon-fed little prik? Go spend a day at the "beach" on the Sein.
>>> Pervert. You've been there, haven't you?
I passed by the "beach" and was aghast to see pasty assed whales hanging out on the sand, trying to play American style beach volleyball, with all wearing US sunglasses, smoking delicious Marlboros and complaining how it is that America has ruined their world. I found it truly pathetic.
"NO War for chocolate in the Cote' you tough little dick-less french pussys!"
>>> So boycott chocolate too (chances are, it may come from Ivory Coast) and shut the fuck up.
Again, you are truly a french intellectual at work, intent on continuing to keep your country on it's pathetic knees in the face of the word.
Look at Messier taking Universal (a US film company), giving it a french touch and then milking BILLIONS from the shareholders, then driving the company into the ground- and you'll perhaps get the picture.
An Enron-style picture?
Anyway Pato, it's the closest you've ever been to holding a decent argument (and there's decent english in it too!), that deserves some reward.
Has the G-mail address been given away yet?
Ah, on tutoie. Je vois le genre. "Personne ne t'empêche de partir, camarade", right?
Ah... voila une réaction très Francaise...
Eh bien, excusez moi mademoiselle (madame?).
S'il y a quelquechose que je préfère nettement aux USA, c'est que les gens sont bien moins "coincés" que les Francais.
No, not at all an "enron type of scandal" for a variety of reasons that should be self-evident... to those other than the french then, I guess.
Enron did NOT calm waltzing into paris to buy up a french company, move it's executives into parisian penthouses while milking the shareholders. I thought the french HATED US films- so why the investemnt by Vivendi in Universal? Why then did Vivendi do NOTHING but bring the company to it's knees? Thats the french touch and culture at work for you. So you ahte the US films and fat americans yet you all tickled M Moore's prostrate, and wanked him off upon his dusty arrival in your southern slum, you even gave him a standing ovation yet you didn't offer to give him a damn bath and to shave his beard. You dis-appointed many in the US for NOT scrubbing the dust off his fat and soiled ass.
No real comparison to make between universal's demise at the hands of the french when taken against the enron debacle. Two different stories.
Glad messier has finally been hand-cuffed and is in court, while many enron people are now doing time in prison with many more to come.
french justice is quite different when it is chiracs' little coffee boys who are in trouble.
The bottom line still is the fact that france is a god forsaken and HORRIBLE place and a backward bastion of welfare whore filth, thats whats makes this site so great.
and zoommerx- I am not haitian, nor am i from ivory coast so why speak THAT language to me?
Oh, and you know- your language REALLLY sucks to, thats why it has NOT been embraced except by africans who you french force fed the language too.
I mean- why use 50 words to make a point, when using only 5 words will do fine? You french are famous for getting erections simply by hearing YOURSELVES speak, yet no one else ever listens.
"America believes that as a European power, Turkey belongs in the European
Union," Bush said.
He needs a few geography lessons : Only 3 % of Turkey is in Europe, the 97
% remaining belongs to Asia.
Not surprising, either, given Bush's extensive knowledge of geography and of the world.
" "The only thing I know about Slovakia is what I learned first-hand from
your foreign minister, who came to Texas."—To a Slovak journalist as quoted
by Knight Ridder News Service. Bush's meeting was with Janez Drnovsek, the
prime minister of Slovenia.
"Keep good relations with the Grecians."—Quoted in the Economist, June 12,
1999
http://fray.slate.msn.com/id/76886/
There you go basing your self worth from what the UN(!!!) does for you or your language. How pathetic you little fool, that you cannot get glory on your own without the UN which the US created.
You're not answering the question I asked you. Why are the 2 official languages of the Security Council (to be more precise) English and French? Personally, I don't give a damn who speaks French or not.
What the hell is wrong with you that you have to reach for such desperate comparisons from centuries ago?
But I bet you did not know that, did you?
I take it some Yank grabbed you off the street in Beijing and dragged you forcefully in to visit the Colonel and eat his chicken?
No, I just wanted some fried chicken to eat, regardless its nationality.
You're not missing much.
And I take it that all the Chinese came up to you and begged your pathetic french ass to "stand up to the Americans and have them take this chicken away!"??? damn imbecile.
No, I just wanted some fried chicken. Did I say that before?
There is not an Irishman on this planet who embraces anything french. Not so long ago? Like what 1840's New York?
I don't think world litterature is high on your list, but you may want to read about James Joyce, Samuel Beckett, and Oscar Wilde, as well as countless Americans whose work was just too "shocking" or controversial for knee-jerk Puritanism back home.
Ahh, a frenchman who still thinks he's "saved the US ass". Wow, you people are really pathetic and desperate.
Why don't you prove me otherwise? Is "desperate and pathetic" the only thing you can say, Pato?
I passed by the "beach" and was aghast to see pasty assed whales hanging out on the sand, trying to play American style beach volleyball, with all wearing US sunglasses, smoking delicious Marlboros and complaining how it is that America has ruined their world. I found it truly pathetic.
Bullshit, you were there to check out Euro men wearing Speedos. But seriously, you realize how this type of comment make you look like a complete moron, don't you?
S'il y a quelquechose que je préfère nettement aux USA, c'est que les gens sont bien moins "coincés" que les Francais.
Désolée de ne pas me "décoincer" avec n'importe qui. Ce n'est d'ailleurs pas une question d'être "coincé" mais une question de politesse, de correction et d'éducation, ce dont les Français sont totalement dépourvus (la preuve), contrairement aux Américains. Par contre, la familiarité... Vas-y que j'tutoie tout le monde, de mon vieux pote au Pdg de ma boîte, de la concierge au mec à qui je demande un renseignement dans la rue. C'est tout simplement de la grossièreté. Tout comme se lancer en français sur un blog anglophone. Mais bon, on s'en fout ! (pour rester polie, le mâle français faisant généralement référence à des organes qu'il ne possède pas réellement) Le vouvoiement, c'est pour les chiens.
Would that last comment from Pato get a PG-17 rating? Your right, Dr. Evil, Pato improves tremendously when he cans the invective.
I want to share with you A letter to the American People
This week in Iraq, we are witnessing the birth of a democracy where none has existed before - one that will ensure human dignity for all Iraqis.
While the path to freedom remains difficult, the dream of a stable Iraq, where the law is made by the people and for the people, is within sight. In th epast year, Iraqis - for the first time - elected mayors and local council members. Our people are learning the rights of citizens. As one Iraqi woman said, "we might not have democracy in our hands, but we have it in our hearts."
In Iraq, there is hope again. Hundreds of thousands of refugees have returned home. THe economy is growing and businesses are flourishing. Iraqis now have access to the Internet and satellite news, both prohibited under the former regime, and free speech is practiced daily on the pages of more than 150 independent newspapers. Iraqi children now learn from textbooks free of Ba'athist propaganda.
This is also a time to remember the sacrifice of so many. Just as we mourn for the victims of Saddam's regime, we also grieve for the Americans and Iraqis who were killed or injured during the liberation of by terrorists determined to hold us back. We will honor those who have sacrificed for our freedom by building a new Iraq that lives in peace with the nations of the world, without fear of war, torture chambers or terrorism.
When freedom is born where it never existed, the desire of all people to live in peace and dignity will only grow. With America's support, we know that some day soon Iraqi children will dare to dream the same dreams as American children.
As Iraqis assume full sovereignty over our nation, we extend our hands in friendship and gratitude to the American people. The sacrifice your sons and daughters made for our liberation will never be forgotten. Without those brave young men and women, this day might never have come.
This is the fruit of our labor. Now how could that be wrong?
Like show me. From all I have read Somalia is still a hellhole. It was a hellhole when our troops landed there, and it is a hellhole today.
What exactly did the French foreign legion clean up?
The Legion was there, look it up yourself. The Legion was called there to stabilize the place you rightly call a "hellhole", in fact, the FFF was policing shitholes all over Africa decades before the word "terrorism" or "rebellion" was of any concern to you. The Kolweisi (Zaire) intervention in 1978 should give you an idea of what the FFF is capable of in Mogadishiu-type situations... (I'll provide you with a link later if you wish).
BTW, there was an interesting article once in The Guardian (Brit, not French) on the Somalia operation debacle (no one's making fun of that), but on how the US media had the nerve to put a self-serving glorified spin on it in "Black Hawk Down" whithout any mention whatsoever of other foreign troops coming to their help (I'll try to find the link).
Zoomer
Turkish troops recovered our injured and dead in the Black Hawk Down movie. Is this not the way things went? Please dig up that link showing an alternative ending. Iwould be most interested in reading it. Somalia doesn't sound very stable to me.
Serieusement Carine, je ne l'ai pas fait expres, excusEZ moi. Cependant c'est un peu exageré de votre part de m'accuser de "manque d'éducation" pour une toute petite informalité sans gravité et non provoquée, mais ca aussi c'est typiquement Francais, ainsi que vos prejugés à mon égard, d'ailleurs...
Quand à croire que TOUS les Americains sont polis, vous vous faites des idées (prejugées, encore), regardez mon ami Pato...
Tout comme se lancer en français sur un blog anglophone
Et alors? Vous devriez aller voir au "Guardian Talk", au moins ils ont cent fois plus le sens de l'humour qu'ici.
Regards.
Turkish troops recovered our injured and dead in the Black Hawk Down movie. Is this not the way things went?
Maybe, I'm not sure. The Guardian article also mentioned Malaysian special forces, but I'll have to check on this and confirm.
I thought the french HATED US films
You thought wrong, as usual. France is one of the number one purchaser of US films in the world (maybe number one, not sure) and the French are the most frequent movie goers on average per inhabitant. Disney chose to open its theme park in Paris insead of other EU locations in part because of that merit.
Also, the French government, who has a habit of giving away Legion D'Honneurs (France's highest award) like candies, has given the distinction to countless American actors, from Clint Eastwood to Robert Redford and of course, our absolute favourite, the genial Jerry Lewis.
And I can bet your salary "Farhenheit 911" will do extremely well too...
... and before pato comes in like a mad dog, I was kidding about Jerry Lewis ;-)
To tell the truth Zoomer I found a few mentions of French humanitarian efforts in Somalia while I was delving around for the bad news. Good on ya. In a place like that a little goes a long way.
Something else I omitted in my previous post
(I was just trying to get your goat, or as we here in the Papertiger household like to term it, I was Michael Mooreing you), the troops France has stationed in Afghanistan are in a safe area because most areas are safe. Only a few iffy spots along the Pakistan border.
From this report it sounds like your guys trained the Afghan army officers well.
Enjoy the day.
Zommerx you make it too easy.
There you go, papertiger... a little credit doesn't harm anyone ;-)
Zommerx you make it too easy.
It can be fun sometimes.
On the other hand our President played yours for a sap in Turkey. We don't give a fig about Turkmen getting an EU membership, but it was not so long ago a certain pain in the ass caused a potentially fatal hardship [for our troops] by thrreatening the Turks with this EU membership. President Bush just pointed out for all the world to see the hollowness of Chirac and his promises.
Threats to not allow Turks into the EU won't be very persuasive in the future, now that we know that Chirac has no intention of accepting a muslim voting block (larger then France] into Europe's counter balance to the United States club.
Even Le Monde ran an article on how Chirac is getting frustrated at his own isolation.
As I already anticipate a new Kempasky post denouncing France, or rather Mr. Verges (a slime, let it be clear) representing Saddam Hussein, it is interesting to note how many attorneys are also willing to take his case...
I'm only surprised that Ramsey Clark didn't beat Verges to it.
"This is tyranny and absolute cruelty," Ziad al-Khasawneh, one of 20 lawyers on the Saddam defence team, said. "How can this be called a fair trial if President Saddam Hussein, may God bless him, was denied his basic right to a lawyer?"
There is a legal question that needs an answer before this pack of vultures will be allowed to step foot in a court whose location is a closely guarded secret. Where did Sajidah Hussein get the money for this plethora of legal slimeballs?
If these are funds stolen from the Iraqi people his defence team might shrink to insignificance in a quick hurry. Even if the funding is legitimate (and how could it be), there is reason to believe that these high browed barristers will loath coming to a place where foreigners are subject to kidnapping and extra judicial beheadings.
Plus this list of Advocates which includes lawyers from Jordan, Lebanon, Tunisia, Libya and western countries including the US, Britain, France and Belgium, is headed by a Jordanian, Mohammed Rashdan.
You see the problem. Jordanians Lebanese Tunisians and Libyans are the ones doing the lions share of the killings in Iraq now days. Would the Al Queda slip an informant into this mottly bunch?
I think there are a few hurdles that must be crossed before any over eager ambulance chasers will be allowed access to the most nefarious world leader to ever stand before a court.
By the way, the French objections to Iraq reinstating the death penalty have been noted.
I believe the responce will be along the lines,
"Germany and France not only went too far but they have gone into a domain which is not their own."
"The French and Germans have nothing to say on this subject. It is as if I were to tell the United States how it should conduct its relations with Mexico."
papertiger, you make it too easy!
not to mention fun ~: )
Just curious, who is the American slimeball - I mean defence attorney - willing to represent Saddam?
The Trial
by James Donald Mayeau
The former Dictator strode confidently into the chamber dressed in a charcoal-colored, pinstriped suit jacket, Saddam Hussein, the President of the Republic of Iraq has a smile on his face and a beam in his eye.- This is his big day in court, to be shown on TV in the Arab world and beyond -He looks thinner and better groomed than his previous appearances since the liberation. A lean healthy fit figure who captures the attention of all eyes in the room. This is his stage and he clearly is reveling in the moment.
"Bailiff, read the charges" says the Judge.
The Bailiff rises. He is an all business looking fellow, equal parts Donald Rumsfeld and pittbull, with a dash of ethnicity to remind everyone that this is an Iraqi courtroom. He pulls the twines loose from a scroll which unravels, falls, and quickly reaching floor level, rolls several feet, trailing away from the Bailiff. We can plainly see the list of charges is extensive.
''Saddam Hussein al-Majid, former president of Iraq, also known as the Butcher of Baghdad.'' The Bailiffs voice booms, startling the gallery with its force, the tember reminicent of gravel being slowly crushed under a steamroller, "You are charged with 3,045, 847 counts of murder in the first degree; 4,896,203 counts of aggrevated rape; 2,993,661 counts of torture to prisoners in your care; 4 separate acts of war on neighboring countries; 5 counts of ethnic cleansing and genocide; 1,000,407 counts of larceny; 57 counts of stealing food money from babies;..."
Jacques Verges leans in to Saddam and whispers "If you throw yourself on the mercy of the court, I might be able to get you buried in an unmarked grave, so that it doesn't get vandalized, and your body doesn't get dug up and desecrated."
"Don't worry Jacques, I've got an angle." winks Saddam.
"...41,812 counts of tossing political dissidents into plastic shreading machines;"the Balliff continues reading the charges," 516 counts of looting national museums of historical artifacts to sell in French antiquities markets; 913 counts of creating weapons proscribed by United Nations treaties; 472,106 counts of consorting with international terrorists;... "
"Quit kidding around!" answers Verges, looking slightly shocked at the calm demeaner of his client. " You have family. I might be able to keep them from being mobbed, if you play it right."
"It's all right Jacques, I've got an angle." Saddam has a cat like grin spreading over his face.
The Bailiff is almost to the end of the list "...14 counts of election fraud; then a pause for effect... "and one parking violation."
"Will the defendant please rise," the Judge asks, " Are you Saddam Hussein al-Majid, former president of Iraq, also known as the Butcher of Baghdad?"
The Dictator stands, nonchalantly straightens his tie, then takes four steps toward the bench. He cocks his head back, and with deep self assurance answers, "I am."
The courtroom crowd murmers. The air is electric with anticipation, forcing the Judge to bang his gavel to quiet the gallery.
"How do you plead?"queries the Judge.
Everyone leans forward. The room is intently listening for the words of this man, the quiet only ruptured by a squeek as someone adjusts in his chair.
Hussein clears his throat, and in a clear voice says,
"Not Guilty."
The former Dictator brushes a piece of link from his shoulder then crisply turns, returning to his seat next to the flabbergasted Jacques Verges. The audience erupts in a chorus of boos and catcalls.
"Are you crazy? Not guilty?" the incredulous Verges exclaims to Saddam, "They are going to lynch us both!"
"Calm down Jacque, I've got an angle." says Saddam.
"Call the first witness" says the Judge.
"The Court calls Hasanovr Fist" booms the Bailiff.
"Hasanovr Fist" the sergent at arms echos.
"calling Hasanovr Fist" repeats someone in the court antiroom.
"Angle, ANGLE?" Verges is appoplectic, and his voice rises to a shout which is heard through the entire courtroom, "WHAT ANGLE?"
"Him" answers Saddam, pointing toward a scraggly, pencilneck, goatherder, shuffling up to the witness stand.
[ to be continued ]
Mad props PT, that was aces.
Zoomer, I chased down my Ramsey Clark suspicion, and though I was on the right track it's apparently not him. The American is Curtis Doebbler (I've never heard of him).
which includes lawyers from Jordan, Lebanon, Tunisia, Libya and western countries including the US, Britain, France and Belgium, is headed by a Jordanian, Mohammed Rashdan.
When I posted this, it never occured to me who was missing.
Then I saw this post from Iraq the Model.
Saddam's legal defense team, which ironically does not include a single Iraqi lawyer, complains of the difficulties it faces in obtaining official recognition and a general lack of Justice. A 20 -strong team consisting mostly of Jordanian lawyers was assembled by Saddam's loving wife, and I ask, where are the unaccounted billions of dollars that mysteriously disappeared before the US-led invasion and how is she paying their salaries?
[emphasis added by me]
Thanks for the acknowlegement Doug ;)
I was hoping for more comments, but I suppose it got as many as a total rip off should get.
Check out the dancing Saddam puppet.
Oh one other thing,
Seems there has been a sea change in regards to the Turkish application for membership in the EU.
Chancellor Schoeder Says Germany and France Plan to Back Turkey's EU Bid
Ouch
Maybe not. I read that as "We'll back it after the European Commission says we should".
...or: "Let's keep Bush guessing and confused".
I don't see how this is meant to confuse President Bush.
pfft Like we give a care if the Turks join the EU.
Eh Papertiger, you checked out this one?
eh eh...
Happy Fourth of July everyone.
Thats some good stuff Dr.
Happy B Day America! How old are we now?
lets see 1776 - 2004 = damn got that screwed up
2004 - 1776 = 228 thats lots of candles
You're still a baby in diapers compared to "old Europeans"... (or more like a spoiled teenage brat who wants everything his way ;-)
Zoomer
Can I have the keys to the car?
Do you Europeans think Turkey worthy of joining the Euro Union? If not Why not?
Do you Europeans think Turkey worthy of joining the Euro Union? If not Why not?
Pfff, that's a tough question. I guess it all depends on what one expects from the EU: single market or political entity.
Single market (that's a pro): Turkey is a fast-developing country. 70 millions extra consumers wouldn't be bad. Plus, the EU has a stong democratic stabilization impact on its members - that's mostly why Greece was allowed to join as early as 1979, since it wasn't sure whether it wouldn't go back to a military dictatorship or a communist one. Since the fall of the Wall and the opening of new prospects for integration, Turkey implemented many, many reforms, from financial stability to market liberalization to kurdish and human rights. In this regard, it won't be long before it reaches the level of the next two members, Bulgaria and Romania. It would also be good to show the muslim world that a muslim (even if secular) country can join the West for real.
Political entity (con): Do the Turks want Europe, or a European style of prosperity? Turkey is too big and too peripheral to have many common strategic interests with the core (=founding 6 + UK) countries. Its focus is in the Middle-East and central Asia, not on the Atlantic. Bringing in Turkey would mean bringing in its problems. And with 75 millions people (soon 100 millions in 2030 I believe), that would give it the largest number of votes (thus a blocking minority) at the Parliament and the European Council. Most decisions would therefore probably be blocked on key issues (foreign policy, agriculture, migrations), making an integrated government an unreachable goal. Turkey also has the bad habit of intervening unilaterally on its borders (Cyprus, Kurdistan, Azerbaidjan), which would also mean direct political conflict with other member states. Not good.
The "Deep-throat" I met in Brussels summed it up this way: nobody really wants Turkey to join (each for its own reasons), but nobody's ever had the guts to tell them (because of the effect on stability and anchoring to the West). There will be a point where Turkey will meet the Copenhagen criteria, and opening of negociations won't be avoided. I've been told that 2014 was a likely date for membership.
Many European countries wouldn't actually mind seeing the end of the political integration in favor of a single-market community (UK, most Eastern European members, Berlusconi in Italy and formerly Aznar in Spain). Accepting Turkey wouldn't be a bad way to kill any hopes for further development and opening the way to further enlargement (=more markets, less decision-making in Brussels, which IMO is an illusory point of view). Chirac and Schroeder also see that, and reacted accordingly: they fully accept the principle of a Turkish membership (to stabilize it on our side), but they also started the idea of a furthering of political integration between a small pack of European countries (founding 6 +/- Spain and Portugal), like what has been started with the Euro (an additional number of smaller steps have already been taken in this regard, + the proposed "Constitution" makes provisions for this). That would make two Europes: one for the idealists, one for the nationalists, with nations from the second group joining the first whenever they feel ready. You could somehow compare it with the Republic of Texas joining the Union in 1845.
Zoomer
Can I have the keys to the car?
Since you've been a real punk to your brother and sisters lately, the answer is no.
And go clean up your room.
Do you Europeans think Turkey worthy of joining the Euro Union?
Mind your own business papertiger, did I ask you about Mexico? ;-)
I don't have a strong opinion on it (rather pro), but Dr. Evil
summed up the pros and cons rather well.
I guess it all depends on what one expects from the EU: single market or political entity.
What about military entity? With borders on Syria, Iran and Iraq it’s in a pretty darn good location for any future “EU” military plans. Non-NATO, if you will. Like they say, location, location, location.
Also, if Turkey has to open up its markets, it would not be able to compete against European products in its own home market. Can’t see them having a positive balance of payments, and the EU doesn’t need another country like that.
Biggest downside for the Turks however, me thinks, is this “movement of workers” deal. This overshadows all. How are you all going to absorb their surplus labor force in the EU countries?
It would also be good to show the Muslim world that a Muslim (even if secular) country can join the West for real.
Interesting….but what if it has the opposite effect and makes them an outcast with the more radical Muslims? I think some of them already think this because of ties to Israel, no?
mean direct political conflict with other member states Yeah, you nailed that one. I would guess that any political leanings they have will be middle east first, Europe last. And I’m not sure that would be a good thing.
Accepting Turkey wouldn't be a bad way to kill any hopes for further development and opening the way to further enlargement (=more markets, less decision-making in Brussels, which IMO is an illusory point of view)
I don’t understand what you mean. Accept Turkey in an “economic cartel”, if you will, type of arrangement?
Also, at the end are you saying that the EU should drop a lot of the political ideals and concentrate more on being an economic entity?
(sorry for the stupid questions, but I guess I’m not thinking too straight)
Hello Andy,
What about military entity? With borders on Syria, Iran and Iraq it’s in a pretty darn good location for any future “EU” military plans.
Like I've said earlier, chances that Europe will ever be a single military power in the foreseeable future are, at best, slim. Plus the EU, being limited to "soft power" cannot afford imperialistic attitudes towards its neighbours. You could even call it an "un-empire", in this regard. What it needs and wants (or what its members collectively want) is peace inside and stability in the immediate surroundings. Kagan's excellent "Power and Weakness" article partly addresses this issue. I don't even ask if you've read it :)
Non-NATO, if you will.
I will not :)
No matter how much talk there's been about the common security policy so far, it is still quite a long way from NATO: I don't even recall having seen a collective self-defense (art.5 of NATO) statement in the proposed "Constitutional treaty". This is mostly due to countries like Ireland, Austria, Sweden and Finland, who are EU members yet constitutionally neutral. Thus, without the will not the power to intervene abroad, accepting Turkey would just mean accepting more problems (like Kurdish guerilla based in Syria, Iran or Iraq).
Also, if Turkey has to open up its markets, it would not be able to compete against European products in its own home market.
Do you think it would prevent anyone here from sleeping? :)
Can’t see them having a positive balance of payments, and the EU doesn’t need another country like that.
"Another country like that" would be... the US. Negative balance of payments is not too much of an issue if it is counterbalanced by foreign investment (which would certainly happen).
Biggest downside for the Turks however, me thinks, is this “movement of workers” deal. This overshadows all. How are you all going to absorb their surplus labor force in the EU countries?
We're old, the continent's big, it probably wouldn't be this much migration anyway. This could become a problem if Turkey weren't able to watch its borders: then the whole of Asia and Africa would try to get into Europe, which would be a big problem indeed. But the recent enlargement had provisions for restricting immigration from the new members; this could be done again (more stringently if need be) with Turkey. When Spain and Portugal joined the EU back in '86, they had a net loss of population due to emigration. 20 years later, they have a net gain. It is not unrealistic to think therefore that Turkey could be in 30-40 years a country of immigrants.
It would also be good to show the Muslim world that a Muslim (even if secular) country can join the West for real.
Interesting... but what if it has the opposite effect and makes them an outcast with the more radical Muslims?
Radical muslims are not in power in many countries, and anyway these regimes are bound to failure: we therefore have the upper hand by showing muslim populations they can succeed too if they behave nice (muuuch better propaganda to "hearts and minds" than coming, beating the shit out of them and telling them to behave nice, btw). It is also good to have the "conflict of civilizations" self-fulfilling prophets to shut up.
Plus, Turkey's political system has been fully westernized since the 1920's. They can't be more "outcast" than they are now.
I think some of them already think this because of ties to Israel, no?
Yep, but this alliance doesn't seem to bother much the street Turks themselves, at least until recently. Turks are Turks, not arabs, eventhough both populations are moslem. That means different strategic priorities, just like Catholic France and Catholic Poland have.
Accepting Turkey wouldn't be a bad way to kill any hopes for further development and opening the way to further enlargement
I don’t understand what you mean. Accept Turkey in an “economic cartel”, if you will, type of arrangement?
Yes. Europe is first and foremost an economic cartel anyway, so why not give them what they want? Western Europe has had time to think for itself and figured out life would be easier if they were politically united. Fine. Eastern nations on the other hand right now mostly want protection from Russia and economic prosperity. There's not much idealism there.
Also, at the end are you saying that the EU should drop a lot of the political ideals and concentrate more on being an economic entity?
What I mean is that Europeans that want Europe should get together and try to build a new country, whereas others (let's call them "Nationals") should just get what they want: open markets and a sense of national sovereignty (even if it is an illusory one). Trying to drag the latter kicking and screaming into the former's big project is bound to be a waste of time and energy, and may even lead to failure.
I think it would have made more sense to further the integration between the early members first, and then accept new member states, so that negociations would be on a 1-on-1 basis (EU govt vs candidate) rather than 25-on-25 (each country watching its own local interests first, hollowing out any attempt at further integration). I don't think this was politically acceptable in the 90's, but still that would have been much easier in the long run.
Thanks for your answers on Turkey. Cleared up my mind on a few things.
Yes, I’ve read Kagan’s “Power and Weakness”. It was that paper that he “extended” and made into his book “Of Paradise and Power”.
Like I've said earlier, chances that Europe will ever be a single military power in the foreseeable future are, at best, slim
This EU military “power”, is a weird phantom. In papers I read it mentions EU military alliances/quick strike forces, etc. but never really explains exactly what the deal is. We get quotes from European leaders talking about it, but really no plans or concrete data. It’s just this “thing” that people mention. I will try and remember to link to them, or print next time I see.
Negative balance of payments is not too much of an issue if it is counterbalanced by foreign investment Why does the term military base come into my mind?
beating the shit out of them and telling them to behave nice
Yes, just as Alliot-Marie is suggesting by “ destroying them before they know what hits them” :)
beating the shit out of them and telling them to behave nice
Yes, just as Alliot-Marie is suggesting by “ destroying them before they know what hits them” :)
I suspect she is some American mole within our government ;)
[ to be continued ]
*cough*cough*
Here's a more apt quote of what Chirac SHOULD have said
"He has nothing to say on this subject. It is as if I were to tell the United States how it should conduct its relations with IRAQ."
