Le Figaro commissioned some 40 philosophers, politicians, academics and writers to expatiate on the theme, "Qu'est-ce qu'être français en 2004" (the haecceity of Frenchness being somewhat wispy, apparently something different year to year with no perduring qualities nor quickened by enduring principles). Here's what the French have to say about France and being French:

"How is it that such a brilliant nation has become such a mediocre power, so out of breath, so indebted, so closed in its own prejudices ... To be French today is to mourn for what we no longer are."
-- Chantal Delsol, philosophy professor (Professor Delsol elsewhere remarks that France has "a distrust of anything that claims to teach, to form, to guide, in short, to contain "doctrine". Well, unless the anything is French.)

"Those French who doubt that they have an identity need only listen to those who hate them to convince themselves that it exists."
-- Roland Hureaux, author of Le temps des derniers hommes

"The decline of the French language is inseparable from the decline of the French nation."
-- Claude Hagège, linguist at the prestigious Collège de France

"The economy is suffocating. Big industrial groups are investing elsewhere. The best-off are fleeing, the most talented are leaving. Even the middle classes are demoralised by the taxation levels."
-- Jean de Belot, the editorial director at Le Figaro who conceived the series

The anguished fairy tale that is French identity is informed as much by what the French suppress (also this and this and this and quite a bit of their own invention) as by what they advertise.

But at last the French as a whole appear to be in general agreement with the Pave community: France is a flop.

The best-off are fleeing, the most talented are leaving.
Where are they going? Is it the US or elsewhere in the EU?

Even the middle classes are demoralised by the taxation levels.
Kerry and the Dems should take note.

Kerry has too much on his plate already.

Poor poor France. This is a country in dire need of a little honesty. They must find a Franco version of Ronald Reagan to lift their spirit and steer then toward a nobel goal. First thing to right this ship is address the anti semetism. Suck it up and admit the problem is of your own doing. "Your" as in Mr. Chirac's government.
Then stop pandering to dictators. Send a unilateral message to the Iranians. You will be suprised by the liberating effect it will have on the soul of the country. Things you can do now with minimal cost and maybe even gain ; take the French boot off the back of Cote d'Ivory. They speak French after all! Given real and unrestrained autonomy, who do you expect they are going to want to do business with?
Give your word and live up to it. This is the way to create confidence, in your own people, as well as your business partnerships around the globe.
Free your mind first and then your ass will follow. Because there is nothing wrong with the people of France. We have met some good people here, talented and searching for something more. These people; Dissident Frogman , Carine , Mr. W, imagine what they could accomplish unfettered!

OK I'm through with suggestions.
See ya

After all, Le Figaro is only conservative crap !

So why should we pay attention to what they say ?

First thing to right this ship is address the anti semetism. Suck it up and admit the problem is of your own doing. "Your" as in Mr. Chirac's government.

What makes you think this problem is not being seriously adressed in France and condemned by the vast majority? Of course, no form of anti-semitism exists in the US. Murderded pregnant women make so much more juicier news.

This is a country in dire need of a little honesty

As in invading an oil-rich nation under the pretext it's an imminent WMD threat as political bait while young men keep dying?

Then stop pandering to dictators.

Don't make me laugh.

Send a unilateral message to the Iranians.

We're trying. Just like you're trying with North Korea (too bad there's no oil there or we'd be all better off, so would millions of strarving children). Actually, the French government openly criticized Iranian representatives during a recent visit to Paris on their human rights record, but who in the US media cares?

And Damian, on an unrelated note, I found this intersting piece on the subject of anti-depressants. Apparently, the French are not the only ones who need a little mental uplift...

Now that's interesting zoomerx. After having mysteriously and silently disappeared from the health system thread, without answering naturally, you're back to spit your venom here.

What makes you think this problem is not being seriously adressed in France

What about those two kids (11-13 year-old maybe) of North African origin that had been expelled from the Lycée Montaigne in Paris because they had attacked a Jewish kid. What do you think about their going back to the school because the Education Minister renounced to appeal?

Of course there's also this new - ahem - incident. Soon enough it's gonna be on a day-to-day basis. That's what happens when the governement is gesticulating and claiming to be shocked a lot but does nothing.

After having mysteriously and silently disappeared from the health system thread, without answering naturally, you're back to spit your venom here.

I didn't "mysteriously" disapear, I have other things to do... Well Carine, after you move to the US, make SURE you have a good health plan, or can afford one, that's all I can say.
I'm not spitting venom. Did you actually read the link regarding anti-semitism in the US? It's interesting that these incidents are largely ignored by the US media. I think it's a bit too easy to claim the (French) government does "nothing" about anti-semitic acts although I'm just as outraged as you are.

I didn't "mysteriously" disapear, I have other things to do...

Of course.

Well Carine, after you move to the US, make SURE you have a good health plan, or can afford one, that's all I can say.

Because that's all you have to say. Didn't answer Doug's comments. Nor did you make any comment regarding the links I posted for you about the French system. Very telling actually.
And by the way, I'm not the kind of person waiting for others to pay for my health plan, if you see what I mean.

I'm not spitting venom.

Oh yes, you never dispute the claims made in the posts but point the finger back at the US. Very mature btw. Why don't you start your own blog instead? Pave the US. Oh but of course you'd rather waste others' bandwidth.

Did you actually read the link regarding anti-semitism in the US? It's interesting that these incidents are largely ignored by the US media.

Nobody here claimed there was no anti-Semitism in the US. And the fact that they would be "largely ignored by the US media" is a by-product of your fantasy.
The point here is that in France it's more and more widespread. As I said, it's almost on a day-to-day basis now. In France, the model, again. The France that is lecturing the world and the US in particular.

I think it's a bit too easy to claim the (French) government does "nothing" about anti-semitic acts although I'm just as outraged as you are.

Then what is the French government doing precisely besides claiming they're outraged?

Again, you're simply never answering our questions or assertions. You just keep pointing the finger at the US like a little child caught stealing money from his mom that would try to defend himself by saying his brother did it too.

So why should we pay attention to what they say ?

Well, Stephane, for the same reason we pay attention to what you say.

That's pretty closed minded for a liberal like you, is it not?

Of course

French sarcasm.

Because that's all you have to say. Didn't answer Doug's comments. Nor did you make any comment regarding the links I posted for you about the French system. Very telling actually.
And by the way, I'm not the kind of person waiting for others to pay for my health plan, if you see what I mean.

Well, if you wish to deduct from Doug's example that no insurance whatsoever (or any insurance for that matter) is needed in the US to be treated and released free of charge, you are being a bit gullible. I could post for you dozens of links (it's complex, which is the point) showing this is not the case and quite the opposite. I do not claim the French system is perfect, but I can tell you it is far less complex and available to all (45 million uninsured Americans don't seem to make you question something?). If you bothered to read the US news and listen to this very complex issue from the American side and how it is deeply affecting their politics, maybe you wouldn't be so blindsided. Better yet, go find out for yourself.

The point here is that in France it's more and more widespread

It is. It's a smaller country too. It's more mediatized (including a few hoax in the past 2 years, such as the "stabbed" rabbi and the woman on the train). Having said that, maybe France carries the stigma she deserves for past anti-semitism.

Oh yes, you never dispute the claims made in the posts but point the finger back at the US. Very mature btw. Why don't you start your own blog instead? Pave the US. Oh but of course you'd rather waste others' bandwidth.

Calm down Carine, what a grouch. No, I'm not interested in a Pave the US, I can go to the Guardian UK Talk for that. If Pave is the best way to escape your miserable life in France, then get off your derrière and do something about it! And don't worry, I won't waste "other's bandwith" if you don't want me to.

Of course

French sarcasm.

Because that's all you have to say. Didn't answer Doug's comments. Nor did you make any comment regarding the links I posted for you about the French system. Very telling actually.
And by the way, I'm not the kind of person waiting for others to pay for my health plan, if you see what I mean.

Well, if you wish to deduct from Doug's example that no insurance whatsoever (or any insurance for that matter) is needed in the US to be treated and released free of charge, you are being a bit gullible. I could post for you dozens of links (it's complex, which is the point) showing this is not the case and quite the opposite. I do not claim the French system is perfect, but I can tell you it is far less complex and available to all (45 million uninsured Americans don't seem to make you question something?). If you bothered to read the US news and listen to this very complex issue from the American side and how it is deeply affecting their politics, maybe you wouldn't be so blindsided. Better yet, go find out for yourself.

The point here is that in France it's more and more widespread

It is. It's a smaller country too. It's more mediatized (including a few hoax in the past 2 years, such as the "stabbed" rabbi and the woman on the train). Having said that, maybe France's stigma is well deserved because of her past anti-semitism.

Oh yes, you never dispute the claims made in the posts but point the finger back at the US. Very mature btw. Why don't you start your own blog instead? Pave the US. Oh but of course you'd rather waste others' bandwidth.

Calm down Carine, what a grouch! No, I'm not interested in a Pave the US, I can go to the Guardian UK Talk for that. If Pave is the best way to escape your miserable French life, then get off your derrière and do something about it. And get off your pedestal too.

They must find a Franco version of Ronald Reagan to lift their spirit and steer then toward a nobel goal.

Papertiger, are you speaking about the same Franco i have in mind?
If the answer is yes, why?

I do not claim the French system is perfect, but I can tell you it is far less complex and available to all(45 million uninsured Americans don't seem to make you question something?).

No it's not. This is simply untrue. While we're forced to pay (actually the money is taken from us without us having a choice) it is not sufficient to be covered, and you know that. We have to pay for an additional private insurance, that is also rarely covering everything. Unless you are ready to pay a lot. How many people cannot afford to pay for a "mutuelle" in France? Unless of course, you're the poorest of the poor and then, yes, others are paying for you. But I see you're unwilling to debate about the French system. Still no comment about the links I posted (remember this site is about France) so I don't see why I should bother reading yours.

If you bothered to read the US news and listen to this very complex issue from the American side and how it is deeply affecting their politics, maybe you wouldn't be so blindsided.

The American side, exactly. I don't think you qualify.

Calm down Carine, what a grouch! No, I'm not interested in a Pave the US, I can go to the Guardian UK Talk for that. If Pave is the best way to escape your miserable French life, then get off your derrière and do something about it. And get off your pedestal too.

Hey, I'm not the Frenchman claiming to know better about the US health system than Americans. I'm just trying to have a debate, as a French citizen, with a Frenchman, about the French system. How silly of me. You're not here for a honest debate. The only thing you're able to do is turn a blind eye and point the finger.
As for escaping my miserable French life here, well I wonder what you're doing here then.

I am not speaking of any particular individual, Victor. I used the term "Franco" to refer to Frenchmen as a whole. (I get tired of saying "the French" or "Frenchie")
I have read that France has discriminated in it's foreign policy against Israel for many years now. Let me think of some examples. Most any vote in the UN would do. Condemning the Israelis protective fence would be one. Not honoring Israeli bank drafts would be another. Refusing the sale of arms to Israel would be three.
How many more instances have we documented in the pages of this very blog?

Remember the young Jewish pop singer who was abused on stage while doing a charity event to assuage the misery of last summers heat wave? This while the First Lady of France stood there next to her.
If you set such an example in the halls of official policy, then how are the general population to act better?

Mock outrage at grave desecration doesn't cut the mustard. Saying you were hoping this would blow over, while adding fuel to the fire, is worse then doing nothing.

Zoomer I don't envy you arguing in favor of your country's disjointed policy. Loyalty is a nice character trait. Greater loyalty would be to recognise that the only constant in your country's history has been the Frenchmen's ability to endure the tragic series of Governments.

"The decline of the French language is inseparable from the decline of the French nation." -- Claude Hagège, linguist at the prestigious Collège de France

In all seriousness, what is it with you Frogs and your "language purity"?

"Zee Cannon, zee language is all we have left to cling to. As zee great Mel Brooks pointed out in zee great film History of the World: Part 1 starting with zee Revolution (er zee first one) we were so poor we didn't even HAVE a language. We all talked like Maurice Chevalier."

Time to end this post on a high note. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Zoomeridiot you haven't answer my posts on the multiple Frog VS US health care system entries. You point out your designer friend who had lots of trouble and how it would have never happend under the Frog system. Ok fine. From that you extroplate "THE HORRORS OF THE SYSTEM" and how people are dropping dead from lack of care here in the US. Many of the US posters here called bull on your analyst and have multiple times given detailed rebuttals contridicting you. You keep going back to your designer friend. You are a closed minded idiot. So be it.

Zoomer needs reinforcements. Is there a word for that in French?

I agree with you Papertiger. Europe antisemistism is not normal, but what happens in France is something worst.

I think we'e trying to beat a dead horse here. Peharps you can provide our readers here with links commenting on how the French health care sucks (I'm sure you're glad to enjoy it, aren't you?), I can assure you I could do the same regarding the US system, so why bother? And I suppose Carrine, that the World Health Organization (as well as many other medical organizations) recognises France as the best in health care in a 2000 survey, but never mind. I have 2 actual examples of Americans I know (I've known quite a few in Paris) who were treated in France for emergencies and were completely blown away by efficiency and cost, but who cares.

Hey, I'm not the Frenchman claiming to know better about the US health system than Americans

I'm not proficient with links, numbers etc... on paper, but unlike you, I've experience both systems personally. I must admit that while in the US, I was covered very well (a company named AETNA), I can assure you however that it wasn't the same for everyone. It's NOT the same for everyone.

The only thing you're able to do is turn a blind eye and point the finger.

I'm just having fun wating "other people's bandwith".

As for escaping my miserable French life here, well I wonder what you're doing here then.

I was refering to you, not myself. And unlike yourself, I once picked up my bags and left! No regrets. I enjoyed the US for the most part, beleive it or not, and I still do. I do beleive however that the French health care (and transportation) system, despite its problems (cuts needed), is generally far more efficient and generous. If you don't agree, do like I did (for different reasons) and see for yourself.

Many of the US posters here called bull on your analyst and have multiple times given detailed rebuttals contridicting you.

On paper... which is far easier to do than seeing for yourself. "Bull" is what I would decribe you inabilities to recognize your own enormous health care system issues while ignoring 45 million in the dust just because most can't afford it (again, no mention of that) while your senior citizen would much rather prefer getting their prescriptions abroad in order to afford them. If you don't call that shameful, you're in serious denial.

Refusing the sale of arms to Israel would be three.

Why would France sell weapons to Israel? And did Israel ever ask?

Greater loyalty would be to recognise that the only constant in your country's history has been the Frenchmen's ability to endure the tragic series of Governments.

It's not perfect like some nations , but you're being over simplistic. Maybe you could elaborate.

Zoomer needs reinforcements

what I need Doug, is to understand how you could check into a hospital and leave free of charge, just like that. Lucky you.

If you wouldn't mind responding, Zoomer, do you go by the name "Atlantic" at another famous site? The reason I ask is because I see a lot of similarities between what you post and what "Atlantic" posts.

Anyway, at the risk of veering this discussion off-topic, isn't it a wonder that France and Germany no longer runs the EU like their own personal fiefdom (or should I say France with the Germans tagging along with just so that they don't look like they're going back to the bad ol' days of Nazism; or rather the Franco-Anti-American project of Counterweightville)? ROTFL

This gem of a story pretty much gives it away, as well as this little story and this story.

Then again, it might take this to get bigger point across better.

In America, illegal aliens get free medical care all the time. They do it like this:

1. Get sick or hurt
2. Go to the hospital
3. Provide fake name and/or address
4. Get free medical help
5. Leave the hospital
6. Continue to take advantage of the US

and, as usual, the US Tax Payers bear the responsibility.

No no no Dwayne. All those people die on the steps of the hospital because their wallet biopsies came back rejected. The eeeeevil heartless medical capitalists stack them like cordwood in the back parking lots. And the fat cat doctors, who only care about money, all take month long vacations letting those poor near death people fry on the parking lots during the summer months (I hear August is especially brutal) and freeze ice-cube style in the winter. After all zoomeridiot claims that our profit driven system causes people to be denied needed medical care.

After all he is the expert on our pitiful medical system.

And I suppose Carrine, that the World Health Organization (as well as many other medical organizations) recognises France as the best in health care in a 2000 survey, but never mind.

And what metrics were used to determine this? As long as they actually concern health care, I can respect that. What are the odds...

what I need Doug, is to understand how you could check into a hospital and leave free of charge, just like that. Lucky you.

You seem to have trouble understanding lots of things. Who said that I did any such thing "free of charge"? I was admitted without insurance, or even being asked if I had the ability to pay. I was diagnosed and treated. I left. How hard can that really be to understand?

Zoomerx,

One great thing with you, very French btw, is that you assume everything. You don't know where I've lived, where I've been, you don't know what I'm doing, you don't know who I know, you don't know anything, except that I'm French. You just assume. And from this you deduce a so-called superiority.
I've been trying to have a simple discussion with you about the French system but you just keep going back to your couple of links and your two or three American (that you say) friends and your supposed experience. Moi moi moi j'ai fait ça. All in all, you're bragging more than anything else. And I'm supposed to be the one on a pedestal?

As for your personal experience/examples, I only have your word, which is, judging by your unwillingness (inability?) to debate on the subject here - France, try to focus your attention -, not worth much. I myself have many personal examples. Americans here have given examples too. But yours are better, right? And trusworthy, right? You've seen more, you've been there, you know better. Are you God?

I ask again (for I was referring to you - try to focus your attention), what are you doing here wasting your time with us petites gens who have been nowhere, know noone and are so inferior to you? Ah, maybe you're trying to educate us... I see.

And no, contrary to most of my "fellow" French citizens, I'm not "enjoying" the French system. I do pay for it - way too much -, but I don't enjoy it. And the French system is anything but fair. Check the links I posted in the appropriate thread to try and understand why (if you're not too lazy, or hypocritical, or both, and of course if you have the time, for you're one busy person - are you God? - you only have the time to criticize the American system, not the time to comment on the French one, even though you've known both, of course).

You refuse to talk about the French system because you simply have no argument. Just a couple of links, and then again, many times from some highly doubtful sources.

End of a "discussion" that is going nowhere.

Pro-Freedom, that last link you posted; VDH knocked the stitches off that one.

There are a lot of things you write about me and "assume" - worse, you "doubt" - Carine (such as doubting about the existence of my "friends" or my "absence" in your last post for instance. Yes, very French indeed. I understand you have a very low opinion of me, but please don't "assume" I'm lying just because you don't like what I say.

You've seen more, you've been there, you know better.

Yes, experience gives you a better perspective, you'll see.

Moi moi moi j'ai fait ça

Oui. Et vous? At least I'm in a position to make real life comparaisons. There are many facets of American life that I prefer to France too, even this may surprise you.

I ask again (for I was referring to you - try to focus your attention), what are you doing here wasting your time with us petites gens who have been nowhere, know noone and are so inferior to you? Ah, maybe you're trying to educate us... I see.

Oh come on, first you call me a vulgar
prolo , and now an arrogant snob looking down at you (very French too).... make up your mind. You never fully recovered from my accidental tutoiement , did you?

You refuse to talk about the French system because you simply have no argument.

You refuse to ackowledge my (US) links because you have no argument either.

So when is your good-bye party?

But Zoomeridiot I have stronger American roots than you. And I am calling you a moron on this issue. Let's see you decry 45 million Americans without health insurance. Well guess what, I am one of those 45 million.

I have made a choice not to have insurance. I have made a choice to leave a job where I was about to sign up for insurance. Many of those 45 million are just like myself. We have other priorities in life. If I were to suffer the sniffles I would deal with it using over the counter drugs instead of going to the ER. Saving all concerned (myself and the system) money. If I suffered a major illness, then guess what, my concerns in life would change. And I would do something like get rid of cable tv and pay my medical bills. What's the problem with this system?

"But but but people shouldn't have to make that decision! It's inhumane, well not in your (Cannon) arrogence ugly American case. You (Cannon) can rot in your disease!"

Even if our system was inhumane. (Tell you what, compile 15,000 examples of people dying due to not recieving care to match just one of your summers and we will talk about inhumanity.) It is the American Medical Profit Motive which is driving world medical advances. If we were to adopt a Frog system medical advances would come at a trickle. So you can keep your "humane system" and we'll carry you on our backs. We'll pay the high prices do your freaking socialist medical systems can blackmail us threatening to freaking break our patents unless our drug companies sell their products at production cost.