AS MANY AS 60 CARS STILL BURN NIGHTLY IN FRANCE

PARIS December 8, 2005 (AFP) - Between 40 and 60 [sic, vid. infra] cars are still being burned nightly in France more than three weeks after a wave of suburban violence subsided, a senior interior ministry official said Thursday. Stephane Fratacci, the ministry's director of public liberties, was arguing against a writ brought before France highest administrative court -- the State Council [Conseil d'Etat] -- for the country's month-long state of emergency to be suspended. The jurists who brought the suit said that the measure was no longer needed as normality had been restored in the poor neighbourhoods where the rioting broke out on October 27.

But Fratacci said that last Saturday night 79 vehicles were burned, 46 on Sunday and 50 on Monday. And he urged "the greatest caution" ahead of the end-of-year holidays which regularly see outbursts of violence in suburbs of France's major cities.

M. Fratacci prevailed and the State Council ruled against the petitioners.

FRANCE WARNED OF MORE FLARE-UPS ROOTED IN URBAN INSECURITY

PARIS December 8, 2005 (Guardian) - In a report leaked to the French press, the agency Renseignements Généraux ["RG"], the intelligence service for the police, said the violence, which hit 274 French towns and housing estates, was neither organised nor manipulated but amounted to "urban insurrection".

The agency said it had found no evidence that radical Islamists inspired the unrest. The rioters' main motivation was "their social condition, excluded from French society". Some suburbs had become "veritable urban ghettos of an ethnic nature". France, meanwhile, was more concerned with the rise of Islamic radicalism and religious terror, and had neglected the suburbs' "complex problems". The difficulties included extreme social segregation, above-average unemployment and a strong sense of insecurity.

To speed things along, when the "difficulties" of "extreme social segregation" in "veritable urban ghettos of an ethnic nature" are encountered anywhere other than France, such "difficulties" are more concisely referred to as racism and more precisely as institutionalized racism. Of course, only in France would 20 days of racial rioting be blandly characterized as "social unrest" or more bizarrely as "a very special movement".

The report warns that "any new chance event (the death of a youth) will spark a new outbreak of generalised violence". Even the festivities of New Year's Eve "risk being particularly sensitive" this year.

The report, extracts of which were published in yesterday's Parisien, puts the total damage at more than €250m (£170m [$295m]).

What a lucky break for "Islamic radicalism and religious terror" that France should now turn her limited attentions to French racism.

The cold weather may damp holiday rioting, but we suggest that the RG check in with France's ace prognosticators of "social unrest" to see if rioting is topping the charts.

PFFT (What is this?): La France normale 1 | Rayonnement français 0

Bonjour,

Voir des yankees parler de "racisme institutionnalisé" en France c'est du plus haut comique !!

Il n ' y a jamais eu de "lois racistes" en France hormis sous l 'occupation nazie.

Aux USA on pratiquait le RACISME ETATIQUE et ce il y a moins de 50 ans !!!

D'ailleurs les USA sont un Etat fondé sur le génocide et l 'expropriation de légitimes propriétaires (combien de millions d 'Indiens génocidés ?).Et après cela le yankee ose sacraliser le droit de propriété !!!!

Combien de Présidents juifs, noirs, hispaniques ,indiens aux USA ?

Dans ce pays ""antiraciste"": Jo Liebermann a été écarté comme étant juif etc,etc

Good luck for your country in Irak !!.

I don't speak frog, but one phrase I noticed in your diatribe was accusing the U.S. of racism and genocide. This is hypocritical coming from a frenchman.

Let us not forget that France is the nation which brought millions of slaves from Africa to the western-hemisphere, massacred 100,000 Haitians under the orders of Napoleon, willingly collaborated with the Nazis and sent their own citizens to concentration camps, assisted in the Rwandan genocide by training Hutu rebels, massacred civilians in the Ivory Coast, killed hundreds of Algerians in Paris during the 60s, massacred and tortured thousands of Algerians while trying to maintain control of its colony. And you're accusing the US of crimes?

P.S.
Thanks for wishing us luck in Iraq; it's currently a more democratic country than France is.

Combien de Présidents juifs, noirs, hispaniques ,indiens aux USA ?

Well, how about France? How many non “white males” non Jews/Muslims etc has France had as major politicians? I can only think of Leon Blum and Georges Mandel, back in the Third Republic days…and of course, in fine French tradition, Mandel was assassinated by fascists after being thrown in jail for 4 years! As the old, old French joke went "Why is it that France is ruled by seventy-five-year-olds? Because the eighty-year-olds are dead."

Well, you may not have had “racist laws”, but that sure didn’t stop the French from being anti-Semitic—and many calling for “laws” against Jews. Just how many copies did Edouard Drumont’s venomous La France juive sell anyway? How about the Catholic daily La Croix in 1898 “we will vote only for candidates who will undertake to propose, support, and vote for a law forbidding Jews to vote, or to hold any military or civil office in the state”. Please also find out about the many anti-Semitic journals in the 1920’s to the late 1930’s, such as Le Cri du Jour. How about writer Marcel Jouhandeau, who in 1936 came up with this ditty: “I always instinctively felt myself a thousand times closer to our former German enemies than to all those Jewish riffraff who call themselves French…I hereby vow to call for the vengeance of my people against them [the Jews] so long as there remains a single one in France who is not subject to special laws.” Check out the street gangs of the Action Francaise with their crys of "Death to the Jews".

So, there was a lot of racism in France BEFORE the Germans took over in 1940. To say any differently would be foolish.

D'ailleurs les USA sont un Etat fondé sur le génocide et l 'expropriation de légitimes propriétaires (combien de millions d 'Indiens génocidés ?).Et après cela le yankee ose sacraliser le droit de propriété !!!!

How convenient of you to forget about France and her contributions to the plight of the Indians (not to diminish the acts of the US) Lets review, shall we?
What about French trade with the Indians, oh, lets just start about 1603 with Champlain. How about small pox and other diseases the French infected the Indians with, helping in the “genocide” before Americans were even here? Then let’s head south with La Salle and his “settlement” of Louisiana. Just how much did he pay the Indians for the land, or did he steal it?
How about coureurs de bois who traded in Indian slaves, some of whom were even sent to the West Indies in trade for “Negroes” on a 3 for 2 basis?
How about the French paying a bounty for Indian scalps? Have you forgotten about the slaughter of the Natchez tribe in 1729, and as if that were not enough, the 400 that were captured where shipped to Haiti as slaves.
So, I could go on and on, having not even touched on the French and Indian wars, but I think you get the picture. France was very instrumental in the demise of the American Indian up until the time of the Louisiana Purchase in early 1800’s. We paid you 3 cents an acre for all that land…how much did France pay the Indians for the land? So don’t take the high road on this one, my friend.

Good luck to your country in the suburbs!

The use of torture in Algerian suspected terrorists by French special forces five decades ago is best described in the movie The Battle Of Algiers (in which France wins the war, but loses control of the peace), which was a huge hit at the Pentagon weeks before the Irak war.

There's a lot to blame France for, but training Hutus two years before the massacre does not mean France "assisted" in a mass-scale genocide that would later be virtually ignored by the US as well by the way. Should I mention the US/CIA training of just about every right-wing para-military regime in South America (as well as Africa) after WW2?

As for the Ivory Coast situation, please note that a total arms embargo against I.C. was unanimously passed by the UN at France's request (including a formal request to Israel to stop selling high-tech radars to I.C.), after the massacre This should give you an hint on how Mr. Gbagbo's regime is viewed around the world, outside of Pave.

how much did France pay the Indians for the land?

The same amount you paid Mexico for theirs, along with further Indian "aquisitions".

How about small pox and other diseases the French infected the Indians with, helping in the “genocide” before Americans were even here?

I think there's a lot to blame on every side - French, Brits and Americans - on the subject, and let's not forget "Buffalo Bill"'s eradication campaign of wild bisons - the Indian's main food supply - with the blessing of the US army.

So Zoomer which torture did France use in Algeria?

Was it women's underware on people's heads? Or was it putting people in a pyramid? Hmmm maybe it was just a fake story of flushing a book down a toilet?

Or was it along the lines of a kinder and gentler grinding people up in a plastic shreader? Or maybe a gentle love tap of decapitating people. You all kept that love fest going on all the way into 1977 if memory serves. After all the first three are true examples of torture, right? And the last two are just expressions of love and joy.

Oh and andy, see the French and Indian War was nothing. After all as zoomer has pointed out many times France helped us in the Revolutionary War. And as we all know French - American history starts at that point, right?

So Zoomer which torture did France use in Algeria?

I'm not sure cannon, since digital cameras were not available at the time.

You all kept that love fest going on all the way into 1977 if memory serves.

You're still doing (although differently) it as far as two days ago, if memeory serves ;-)

yes. For a person who was tried and convicted by a jury. The conviction upheld through numerous appeals any one of which could have halted it. We have executed 1001 prisoners since the death penality was reinstated in 1976.

Yes zoomer we have done that. And we will continue to do so. But I am so glad that the European community cares so much for a person who founded a gang which has directly and indirectly killed thousands of people through drive by shoots and the scourage of drugs. I guess all you Europeans recognized in him a junior spark of your past actions.

But hey on the bright side zoomer we barbarians are no longer going to put womens panties on prisoners' heads due to our new "torture" bar.

For a person who was tried and convicted by a jury.

For a black person convinced by a jury.

As you probably don't know, American juries traditionally disproportionally execute blacks commiting muder on whites than vice-versa. I'm shocked! I thought only in France!

Moreover, the idea of waiting 21 years to execute someone is absurd and indeed, cruel.

But hey on the bright side zoomer we barbarians are no longer going to put womens panties on prisoners' heads due to our new "torture" bar.

Did you look at the photos, cannon? I don't see any panties but I do see a man sleeping with a bag of ice on his chest, wait a minute... or is he dead ? And there are more photos that they don't want you to see, by the way.

Wouldn't want to shock all you God-fearing people, eh? tssk...tsssk.

"God fearing people" Why Zommer, after all like any good secularist the official Frog line is God is dead. Would it be better if we were Allah fearing jew hating people. Then we would be best buds huh?

Yep, there is ice on that formerly living prisoner. Those two pictures had people who were lauded by the army, promoted, and held up as what everyone should emulate. Oh wait a minute they were tried and convicted. Damn if we were muslim that is what would have happened. Hmmm how about not using ice and let a hot August take its toll? I guess that would have been more humane.

Oh my gawd.... is that a dog being used? Can't have that ... after all to muslims dogs are even more unclean than pigs. The very sight of them is torture... can't have that. Damn perhaps we should have used cattle cars to move them and "showered" them. Maybe it would have been good enough for French sensibilities.

As far as waiting 21 years to execute someone being "torture". If tookie was not protected by being on dead row the Bloods (the other major gang - the one not founded by Tookie) would have taken the opertunity to save the taxpayers some money by killing him earlier. Hell he had another 16 or so years breathing because he was under a sentence of death.

BTW Zoomer, once again you have the wonderful opertunity to talk about your nation's constructive history during the French Indian War and yet you refuse to take it. Aren't you proud of your heritage?

Bonjour,

@Armen

1)Ces millions d'esclaves c'est les USA qui les demandaient pour leurs champs de coton non ? D'autre part c'est nous ,Français, qui avons aboli l'esclavage (Victor Schoelcher 1848).

2)100.000 Haîtiens massacrés par la France, je retiens votre chiffre.Ceci dit permettez-moi de penser que si Haiti était resté un DOM français son niveau de vie serait 40 fois plus élevé (cf Martinique et Guadeloupe) qu 'il ne l'est.

3)La France n 'a pas collaboré avec les Nazis:elle a subi un gouvernement de collaborateurs imposé par l'occupant. Nuance . Ce gouvernement de Vichy ne semblait pas dégoûter les USA à l' époque.Faut-il vous rappeler que les USA ont maintenu constamment un ambassadeur auprès de Vichy (Amiral O 'Leahy et Robert Murphy).Pire, Roosevelt dénonçait notre cher Général de Gaulle comme un fasciste et encensait…Pétain !!!

4)Rwanda;nous n'y sommes pour rien.Le génocide est provoqué par les Tutsi qui nous accusent maintenant avec culot.Lire le récent livre de Pierre Péan qui remet les choses au point.

5)Côte d' Ivoire;Nous n'avons massacré personne.Vous savez très bien , si vous êtes honnête que si nous nous retirons le massacre inter-ethnique sera général.

6)a)Pour les "centaines" d'Algériens massacrés à Paris le 17 Octobre , les chiffres les plus divers circulent.J'attends de la France et l ' Algérie qu'elle fassent un décompte objectif.Nous étions alors en guerre à l'extérieur et face à une insurrection violente à l'intérieur.J'aimerais savoir combien de Japonais (pourtant citoyens américains pacifiques) sont morts dans vos camps de de concentration en 40-44 sur le sol US ?

6)b)Pour l 'Algérie on peut faire la comparaison avec VOTRE colonisation:
-Algérie 1830:2 millions d' habitants
Algérie;2005:32 millions d'habitants et souveraineté totale !

Amérique:1750:30 millions d' Indiens
Amérique 2005:2 millions d'Indiens traités en sous-homme et la colonisation yankee continue !
Alors vaut-il mieux être un Algérien ou un "native american" phrase politiquement correct pour dire colonisé ?

Good luck for your country in Irak !
Et joyeux Noël

Bonjour,

@Andy

1)Vous ne connaissez pas la vie politique en France.Pendant la Quatrième République notre Président du Conseil était juif.Nous avons aujourd'hui de nombreux hommes politiques juifs de premier plan.Je n'en ferai pas la liste car cela serait tomber dans votre ridicule communautarisme Quant aux musulmans , ils ne sont présents en France que depuis moins de 30 ans.Je vous rappelle qu' il a vous a fallu 250 ans pour que vous admettiez des Noirs dans votre vie politique après un (très) long racisme d 'Etat.
En fait les USA veulent cacher qu' ils sont un Etat antisémite.Je répète ma question;
-Quand avez-vous eu un Président juif ?
-Pourquoi Jo Liebermann a-t –il été écarté de la Présidence ?
D'autre part les USA ont connu des lois antisémites:le physicien US Richard (Dick) Feynman raconte comment (avant-guerre) il a été écarté d'une Université américaine(suite à un numerus clausus) car Juif. Etc etc.Chose inconnue dans la France Républicaine…
Drumont ,Jouhandeau sont des débranqués de seconde zone et n 'ont jamais joué de rôle politique majeur en France(Jouhandeau n'était pas un homme politique mais un écrivain hystérique).
Je vomis l 'Action française mais je crois que son antisémitisme n'est rien en comparaison du Parti Nazi US dont j'avais vu des photos de manifestation lors d'une exposition.Pourquoi n'interdisez-vous pas le Parti Nazi américain ?

2)Les Indiens s'entendait très bien avec les Français.D'ailleurs beaucoup de trappeurs étaient mariés à des Indiennes.(très loin du racisme génocideur yankee).Vous avez un certain culot de comparer la mort d' Indiens suite à une contagion avec votre entreprise génocidaire.
D'autre part ,on vous parle d' ETRES HUMAINS pourquoi vous venez me parler de fric ?

Good luck for your country in Irak !

Et joyeux Noel !

It's well known that Jews were often barred from private clubs and from buying real estate. That's in the US, after WW2.

zoomer, blacks no longer outnumber whites on death row. The article you link to uses the figure of 47% of death row inmates as being black. The numbers now are about 49% black and 49% white. Also, the rate of their death penalty sentences is about the same percentage as their high percentage of the prison population, again 49%.

Where you are more correct is in the race of the victim. I have read before somewhere that about 80% of the homicides involving white victims became death penalty cases. I do not know how that rates to the color of the person who committed the murder…for example do black/white murders get the death penalty more often than white/white murders, since the high percentage of death penalty cases does involve the white victim only.

I used to be for the death penalty, but now I’m not sure…good points on both sides but for me are the strides in DNA testing that is exonerating many who were sentenced to death. Also to note that not all US states have the death penalty…38 do, 13 (including DC) do not and a small number of states that have the penalty have not recently executed anyone since Supreme Court reinstated death penalty (early or mid 70’s?). Since we are a Federal Republic, it is the decision of the state to have the death penalty; however the US Government and the US Military do have death penalty powers.

So, in your feeling better about the EU/France because you do not have the death penalty, you can only feel better than those US citizens who live in certain states:) And France only gave up the guillotine in 1981!

But some of EU feeling better, for example Germans is funny, especially the way they outlawed the death penalty. I lift from article here:

But the actual history of the German death penalty ban casts this claim in a different light. Article 102 was in fact the brainchild of a right-wing politician who sympathized with convicted Nazi war criminals -- and sought to prevent their execution by British and American occupation authorities. Far from intending to repudiate the barbarism of Hitler, the author of Article 102 wanted to make a statement about the supposed excesses of Allied victors' justice.

Protecting Nazi war criminals is their reason for no death penalty.

1) I’m not as familiar with the politicians in France except for mostly the Third Republic. Most of the books I have on “recent” French history pertain to this period of history…of course Napoleon stuff and then from 1848 to WWI. I dare say most in the bookstores as well. So, you say there have been many “lower” level Jewish politicians; this is a good thing. But I think your original point was that there was no anti-Semitism until and during the Nazi occupation. I attempted to show that there was plenty of anti-Semitism in France before this period. Just because there are no “laws” against Jews in France did not mean that anti-Semitism did not exist.

Now, the Muslim population you say has only been in France for 30 years and not had a chance to gain a foothold politically. Well, how long is too long for them to wait before you consider it racist? Are you saying then that US was only racist for last 220 years, because the first 30 years against blacks did not matter?

En fait les USA veulent cacher qu' ils sont un Etat anti-Semite
Well, I guess the US just can’t win. You think we are anti-Semites and the rest of the Muslim world (and others) think we do nothing but protect the interests of the Jews and Israel.

As far as outlawing the Nazi party in US—the reason they are not is closely related to the laws that you and zoomer mention against the Jews. Those laws now have been seen to horrible and as society one’s political/religious views should not be against the law. But extremist groups such as Nazi’s take advantage of the laws allowing freedom of speech.

Liebermann’s stock as a presidential candidate for the 2008 election has gone way, way down since his return from Iraq and his “pro-war” stance which will never sell to the democrats. Why was he never elected before? I think you may be partially correct in that he is Jewish, but politics as well play a part. But let me ask you a question? Why do you think it is racist to not vote for someone if they are Jewish, but you think that it is not racist to not vote for someone if they are Christian? Bush is attacked daily because of his religious beliefs, but this is not called racism.

2) Again, I point out to my examples to show you that there is much France can be ashamed about in treatment of Indians, particularly the tribes of the upper Midwest, and South.

The French were responsible for the epidemics of measles, smallpox, influenza, and related bronchial disorders which decimated the encampments and villages….
All the tribes contacted by the French in the early 17th century-the Micmacs, Montagnais, Algonquins, Herons, and Iroquois-charged the French with bringing pestilence and death.

Above from the book American Encounters – Natives and Newcomers from European Contact to Indian Removal 1500-1850. Wonderful chapter on Amerindian Views of French Culture in the 17th Century.

You call the demise of the Indian as fault of Americans. Other books I’ve read call this a “Demographic Takeover”. And it was done by Europeans.
1650: Europeans were 18% of population
1900: Europeans were 30% of population.
What enabled Europeans (new Americans) to grow so much was Demographic Takeover, especially in the US. And it was the Indians that were pushed out.

Bonjour,
@Andy

1) Just because there are no “laws” against Jews in France did not mean that anti-Semitism did not exist.
Vous admettrez qu'appliquer des lois antisémites d'Etat est d'une autre nature que constater qu'il y a des antisémites dans une population.J'ai été très surpris par la lecture des souvenirs de Richard (Dick) Feynman.Alors que nous avions,en France, depuis longtemps de grands Savants juifs au sommet de notre Université , les yankees promulguaient des lois antisémites d'Etat avec numerus clausus dans leurs Universités !
Sur les Noirs et les Arabes ne vois pas comment en 30 ans nous aurions pu résoudre un problème que vous n'avez PAS résolu en 220 ans !

2)Chez nous il n ' y a pas de parti Nazi ,un point c'est tout !

3)Je constate que les USA , qui se prétendent multiculturels pour l'exportation , sont en fait aux mains d'une petite minorité WASP et n'entendent pas donner le pouvoir à un citoyen d'origine juif.Ils nous attaquent constamment sur notre antisémitisme supposé.Ce qui est faire preuve d'un certain culot car toujours ils écartent et ont écarté du pouvoir leurs concitoyens juifs en particulier.

4)Là encore il faut faire preuve d'un certain culot pour confondre les résultats d'une épidémie avec les actes génocidaires des généraux US (Custer etc) ou autres affameurs (Buffalo Bill etc )

5)D'ailleurs un autre point.Les USA ont toujours eu le culot de décrire la colonisation espagnole comme cruelle etc etc.Mais on constate qu'aujourd'hui dans la Bolivie post-coloniale espagnole on élit l'Indien Evo Morales alors que dans les USA si ""sensibles aux droits de l 'Homme"" les Indiens ont été depuis longtemps réduits au silence par l'assassinat ,les viols,les enfermements…

Good luck for your country in Irak !

1 and 3) You make some good points. Another problem you have is that the immigration into France is not a “natural demand for labor”. You have a hard enough time getting employment for people already in France. I compare this to the US where we are getting millions of Hispanic immigrants (mostly illegal), yet, thankfully, they are finding jobs and working. So, the immigration is driven by the need for work and the supply of work.

Now, has France wanted to do something for the last 30 years? US did not want to do anything until about 60 years ago, and there are still race problems. Better start soon.

4-5) My remarks on smallpox are not made with the intention of whitewashing the actions of US in regards to eradication of American Indians. The US faults, as I mentioned, are sufficiently evident. But I only wish to impress the necessity of taking all factors of the case into consideration when forming a judgment.

The Indians were conquered not just militarily (as you wish to fully explain it by, of course, to give it the most anti-American spin) but also economically, technologically, and, by disease. Combine this with millions of “white Western Europeans” immigrating into America in the early 1800’s, it was just too much for peoples decimated by smallpox for the last 300 years.

Many estimate that by 1800 the Indian population had already been decreased by 75 to 90%. With population loss so great, it no surprise that the US “won” the Indian wars over the plains Indians so quickly and with such uncalled for devastation. This is also where the Indians were defeated, if you will, technologically. Guns, railroads, steel, and the constant pressing of more and more immigrants drove in the final stake. (This is spelled out wonderfully in The Long Death- The Last Days of the Plains Indian by Ralph K. Andrist).

Also, there are major differences between the demise of the plains Indians (west of the Mississippi) and the eastern and southern tribes that should be examined before coming to judgment.

Interesting enough, you give me food for an example with the Spanish and Bolivia. You make the conclusion that because an indigenous Indian was elected in Bolivia that the Spanish were not as ruthless as Americans.

When all facts are looked at, there is no real comparison between the “conquest” of Peru/Bolivia area and the situation in the US. There are many major differences, just in the few we mentioned above.

The Spanish were after gold. Gold, and only gold. Although they did set up colonies, their main interest was to take the metals and leave. Also, there was no major immigration from Europe that followed the Spanish in the 1500 and early 1600’s into the areas that were conquered, which is another major difference between the two events. Technology also different between 1500's and what happened here in 1700-1880's. There was also smallpox, which killed millions of Aztecs and Incas and others, but with no military or immigration push following these population reductions, the native people were able to rebound, to a certain extent.

So, I see no relation between the two to conclude that the Spanish were not as brutal as US just because there are native Indians left in parts of South America.

If you wish to pursue further, may I suggest two books by William H. Prescott, History of The Conquest of Mexico (about Cortes and Aztec people) and History of The Conquest of Peru (about Pizarro and Inca people, both books written in mid 1840’s) Also, The Discovery and Conquest of Mexico by Bernal Diaz del Castillo, who was with Cortes in Mexico during 1519-21. Good first hand account, and used extensively by Prescott. If you have not yet had your fill of the Spaniards, then I suggest Hernando de Soto – A savage Quest in the Americas by David Ewing Duncan. It details his travels in the US from 1539 to 1543 as one of the first Europeans to travel deep into the US.

I think, if you read these books, your opinion my change about the level of savagery exhibited by the Spaniards compared to the US soldiers. But what do I know?

Good luck to your country in the suburbs!